The reason it looked "scrappy and disjointed" as it is very difficult to dance. Simon was always going to be compared to Brendan, who has danced this professionally for years, of course. The VW needs drive on the first step rising up slightly on step 2, linear swing down the room, which creates the lilting swing. When the feet cross, it is very easy for the celeb to feel the need to rise, this in turn creates the "skip". VW is a dance that must be kept smooth, various steps have no foot rise, closing feet has to be smooth. Step 3 for man is toe, heel and step 6 is where the foot is brought in flat. So important to keep "down", this keeps it smooth.
I didn't think that Simon - for an absolute beginner - danced badly, he was never going to be so good as Brendan would be. This is where this show is slightly unfair as the girls have such an advantage dancing with a male pro, than the other way round.
When you learn to dance Ballroom, VW is always the last dance you learn, for very good reason.

Thanks Jennifer

Fawkes, I know exactly what you mean! I came to ballroom/ Latin / salsa after doing ballet for years and I still get frustrated when I ask a teacher "How is this done?" and get the response "Well, it doesn't matter too much, however you want, just do what feels right..." I've barely done any swing dancing but for salsa it's all about getting the right amount of tension in the arms and just figuring out how to adjust depending upon how hard the lead is. Don't be surprised if you end up increasing the tension at the request of one partner, then being told to reduce it again (or discovering you're just not going to end up moving if you don't reduce it) for the next! For salsa it's also keeping your hands at around hip/ waist height and in front of your body when you're dancing in open hold (to make sure that the leader can always get to your hands to go into the next set of steps) and not straightening your arms more than is necessary because the closer you are to your partner, the more time you've got to perform the steps in the right count. I've mostly learnt to follow by trial and error, but I did an exercise once where one partner shut their eyes and the other tried to lead them back/ forward/ right/ left around the room using just the hand connection. We did it both ways (i.e. follower closing their eyes and then the leader doing it) so that you had an idea of what it felt like from each position. That was interesting because it really forced you to pay attention to the hand connection and, because we weren't doing proper steps, you couldn't guess what was coming next or try to work it out by watching.

If it's an option, personally I would recommend trying leading at some point as well (even just something really basic) because it can be easier to feel how the whole dance fits together if you've an idea of their steps and their challenges. I think leading improved my ability to follow because I could feel what it meant when they talked about anticipating or too much/ too little tension in the arms. When you're following it can be really hard to find the line between following instinctively, anticipating a lead and actually just backleading. It also means that when leaders complain about how very difficult leading is and how easy it is to follow, you can have the satisfaction of knowing you can do both. (If you're good at learning steps, you might find that leading isn't that hard for you - it's a lot more logical than following because you just have to know your steps and know where your follower needs to be, which is sort of built into your own steps anyway (or it should be).)

I did a bit of following today due to a shortage of females. It is amazing how much one can learn about leading by following.

Apparently men make great followers because, in general, they have not learnt the follower steps and just follow - not follower lead.

Well, that may be true in AT but it is emphatically not true in Lindy Hop!

LH Leaders and Followers have such different roles that learning both is very challenging (and very much encouraged)! Leaders are used to be more grounded and travelling a lot less. They also (like most beginner followers) struggle with being 'told' what to do and if they are advanced, it can be very hard for them to put their musicality to the background and prioritise their leader rather than the song. The overall effect can be like leading a stubborn, barely broken in pony!

Sounds very familiar .

When I follow I do it with my eyes shut and "listen" carefully to the lead. Not being a competent multi-tasker I don't / can't also listen to the music.

I tried Balboa a month ago. Never done Lindy Hop. It was supposedly a beginners' class but everybody else was experienced at Lindy Hop. I'll definitely do it again but I spend enough time at AT and culturally I am more at home with AT (my home language is Spanish).

Such bliss when there is a magical connection. I think I am finally beginning to get the hang of this AT lark. Last week I was told by two women at different milongas that I had a great connection and that I was the most passionate dancer in the room. . Maybe there is something in my diet Or they've been talking - I'll give my PR a bonus ...

Simon & Kristina's VW did look scrappy. almost entirely down to poor footwork, from both, Simon, of course, could only do what he was taught. The VW should be smooth, flowing and elegant, and TBH that isn't Kristina's forte. As I've said before, slinging her head around did nothing to add to the dance either, and looked as if it was pulling Simon off balance.

Although as Jennifer said (earlier post) you can't in all fairness compare Simon to Brendan, I did think that Sunetra looked better than Ktistina!

Listening to the lead is always first, music always second, which is painful when the one whizzes past the leader over and over, but it's a good chance to work on the 'neutral/happy' facial expression.

I'm glad you tried Balboa, I like it (although it's probably 5th on my personal leader board, at least in part because I am only a beginner leader and there aren't many leaders for me to follow regularly) lots and I imagine lots of the physics are transferable, even if the posture/music/character of the dances are miles apart.

I recently heard, second hand, that someone who attended one of the events I help to run, had said that their favourite thing to do all weekend was watch the happy faces of the followers I led /proud Betty!

It's good to get nice feedback, huh, Henry?

This is interesting. I said on one of the threads at the weekend that there was something odd about Kristina and Simon's dance that I couldn't put my finger on. I wondered if they had gone wrong and had had to improvise. But to be honest I know so little about the ballroom dances that I cam to the conclusion it was my imagination. That and maybe the music didn't provide the right mood (for me)

I have a question though - far anyone.

Brendan was explaining in the VT how he was teaching Sunetra to deal with the multiple turns. I was interested in this because although I can spot perfectly well when doing multiple spot turns in salsa the techniques don't work for AT

In AT there are figures like Molinete/Giro and Cadena where the couple go around one another (either one moving around the other acting as a fulcrum, both going around each other or each kind of intercepting the others step Bad descriptions I am afraid).

In a dance situation it isn't an issue because you would rarely do the figure more than once or maybe twice. But in class when we repeat, repeat, repeat it does cause dizziness. Last week we were practising cadena con ganchos which is very intricate and needs to be practiced a lot to get it right. It would be useful to find a way of handling the dizziness.

Does Brendan's technique work? What was it exactly?

This made me smile. Strictly speaking the rule is that you leave you hand wherever the guy left it so he knows where to find it to pick it back up again. But men never remember where they put anything.

Very much so. And the dance gets so much more confident and expressive as a result. Just back from another milonga. Great fun. And great to be asked to dance by women - for a change not out of pity.

Not just me then ...

In my youth I used to work with a girl, who told me she was always losing things at home. But her mother could always find them. she told me her mother often said to her. "I only had to pick something up and there it was!"

So it's not just men.

Agreed. Giros make me dizzy. And having done them and felt dizzy I don't lead more than one at a time. The solution is to reverse direction. I reverse Ochos as well - just before the foot lands. Followers love it.

I was referring to classes Henry. Very few leads will lead multiple giros in dances but class/practice is about repetition. That's the only time it becomes a problem having nothing to spot on.

I had to have a sit down the first time I did Giros in a class.

OK let's play a game. Here is a piece of music. What are you dancing right now to it?

Paul Simon - You Can Call Me Al

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULjCSK0oOlI

I'm doing a Milonga style Tango - sitting down of course.

Not a song that inspires me to dance I am afraid. Its not a track I am wild about at all as it happens.

But if you are in the mood for digging out music you may be able to help me track something down. I am afraid I can't give you much to go on though. Some months ago I danced a tanda to three beautiful tracks. As soon as the tanda ended I went to check what they were but the DJ just had them on his data base as Tango No 5 All I have to go on is that they were classical guitar tracks (sounded like 'Spanish guitar' / gypsy jazz even a little flamencoy). I would live to be able to find them again.

Armik Tango Flamenco perhaps?

http://vimeo.com/99492913

He is Iranian - Armenian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armik

It could be Amrik. It is certainly similar but I haven't been able to find the tracks in question

La quimera del tango

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrMtyqJLgY8

But this sounds more Llanera style than Flamenco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8pT6qXk08

I found a couple of great youtubes on Tango

BBC Four - La Confiteria Ideal: The Tango Salon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx-LNAVlxbk

Milonga

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6JYeEcxnUU

I find it amazing how very different Ballroom Tango is to Argentine Tango. In the former there is a lot of staccato movements of the head. In the latter the heads and chests are locked together the whole dance.

Thanks for the link to the documentary Henry. I don't know how I came to miss that.

Disagree on the heads and chests point BTW.

Milonguero style v Salon style.

Upper bodies come apart much more for exhibition / demonstration tango but I find myself staying pretty much upper body locked even for ochos and giros. 100% locked for Vals and Milonga.

But even when the heads come apart there is little movement in them in AT and far from the staccato in Ballroom Tango. I have only seen that once in in AT in an exhibition dance.

When I mention tango people do one or both of two things - jerk their head; kick at me.

This is what I mean by locked-in. Depends on the dancing relationship of course and heights. My favourite followers are only just shorter than me in heels.

Milonga
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TE54E1tW0U

Tango
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lv7A45r2Es

Vals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5JFgjJn41A

Here is Ballroom Tango

2010 IDSF Grand Slam Final - Tango [with Joanne Clifton from Italy (sic) as opposed to Grimsby]

http://youtu.be/FqC5RAhEPD8?t=3m30s

Here is (an) Argentine Tango with the same music, Libertango

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbXcy_EEhPk

Here is Vincent (and Dani) interpreting Libertango to an AT [I voted for it and it helped me on my way to dance AT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvtfiPvPhZ8