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Old 31-10-2014, 13:50
tangos_with_tim
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I have a question though - far anyone.

Brendan was explaining in the VT how he was teaching Sunetra to deal with the multiple turns. I was interested in this because although I can spot perfectly well when doing multiple spot turns in salsa the techniques don't work for AT

In AT there are figures like Molinete/Giro and Cadena where the couple go around one another (either one moving around the other acting as a fulcrum, both going around each other or each kind of intercepting the others step Bad descriptions I am afraid).

In a dance situation it isn't an issue because you would rarely do the figure more than once or maybe twice. But in class when we repeat, repeat, repeat it does cause dizziness. Last week we were practising cadena con ganchos which is very intricate and needs to be practiced a lot to get it right. It would be useful to find a way of handling the dizziness.

Does Brendan's technique work? What was it exactly?
I think Brendan was telling Sunetra to keep spotting at lots of different points as she went round, which I would personally find a bit much to keep thinking about.

What I find useful in Viennese is to keep 'registering' what I am looking at every half a rotation - I say 'registering' because I don't even focus, I just am conscious that I am looking at, say, the table where our friends are sitting, then half a turn later the flowers at the other end of the ballroom - it is just enough to give me some grounding so I don't get dizzy.
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Old 31-10-2014, 15:50
kaycee
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This is interesting. I said on one of the threads at the weekend that there was something odd about Kristina and Simon's dance that I couldn't put my finger on. I wondered if they had gone wrong and had had to improvise. But to be honest I know so little about the ballroom dances that I cam to the conclusion it was my imagination. That and maybe the music didn't provide the right mood (for me)

I have a question though - far anyone.

Brendan was explaining in the VT how he was teaching Sunetra to deal with the multiple turns. I was interested in this because although I can spot perfectly well when doing multiple spot turns in salsa the techniques don't work for AT

In AT there are figures like Molinete/Giro and Cadena where the couple go around one another (either one moving around the other acting as a fulcrum, both going around each other or each kind of intercepting the others step Bad descriptions I am afraid).

In a dance situation it isn't an issue because you would rarely do the figure more than once or maybe twice. But in class when we repeat, repeat, repeat it does cause dizziness. Last week we were practising cadena con ganchos which is very intricate and needs to be practiced a lot to get it right. It would be useful to find a way of handling the dizziness.

Does Brendan's technique work? What was it exactly?
I know nothing about dancing AT or salsa for that matter. But in BB & Lat the technique is look at (spot) whatever is in front of your eyes - might be the wall or a window or a stage. As you turn, keep your eyes on the same thing for as long as you can until it is no longer possible, then you whip your head round and find the same spot again. Needs practice but always works in the end. This is spotting.

Have you ever watched a ballet dancer spin on the spot on one foot en pointe? Most reasonably good ballet dancers will get up to 20+ turns, extremely good ballerinas 30 or more, but using the spotting technique they don't get dizzy.

In VW some people make the mistake of thinking every step in rotational - it isn't. Whether you are dancing natural or reverse turns your first steps will take you to face the wall, the next steps to face centre. there should be more movement down the LOD than rotation.
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Old 31-10-2014, 19:11
An Thropologist
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I know nothing about dancing AT or salsa for that matter. But in BB & Lat the technique is look at (spot) whatever is in front of your eyes - might be the wall or a window or a stage. As you turn, keep your eyes on the same thing for as long as you can until it is no longer possible, then you whip your head round and find the same spot again. Needs practice but always works in the end. This is spotting.

Have you ever watched a ballet dancer spin on the spot on one foot en pointe? Most reasonably good ballet dancers will get up to 20+ turns, extremely good ballerinas 30 or more, but using the spotting technique they don't get dizzy.

In VW some people make the mistake of thinking every step in rotational - it isn't. Whether you are dancing natural or reverse turns your first steps will take you to face the wall, the next steps to face centre. there should be more movement down the LOD than rotation.
Thanks Kaycee

Spotting works fine in salsa. I can do as many spot turns as the guy choses to lead (assuming he doesn't lead them off centre). But in AT there is a different type of turning its sort of walking around in a circle I suppose. I will see if I can dig out a clip[ to show you what I mean. It does sound more akin to VW.
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Old 31-10-2014, 21:05
fawkes
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Fawkes, I know exactly what you mean! I came to ballroom/ Latin / salsa after doing ballet for years and I still get frustrated when I ask a teacher "How is this done?" and get the response "Well, it doesn't matter too much, however you want, just do what feels right..."

I've mostly learnt to follow by trial and error, but I did an exercise once where one partner shut their eyes and the other tried to lead them back/ forward/ right/ left around the room using just the hand connection.

If it's an option, personally I would recommend trying leading at some point as well (even just something really basic) because it can be easier to feel how the whole dance fits together if you've an idea of their steps and their challenges.
Thanks franglemand, that's the feeling, exactly! I like the sound of that hand connection exercise.

I have tried leading at some classes (when there were far too many girls) and it is great fun and really interesting! Decided to concentrate on following for now tho as I'm not yet secure enough to avoid getting confused when I switch

Betty and Henry, congrats on your good feedback, how lovely.
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Old 31-10-2014, 21:12
fawkes
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Thanks Kaycee

Spotting works fine in salsa. I can do as many spot turns as the guy choses to lead (assuming he doesn't lead them off centre). But in AT there is a different type of turning its sort of walking around in a circle I suppose. I will see if I can dig out a clip[ to show you what I mean. It does sound more akin to VW.
Re turns/spotting/dizziness

I've never been great at spotting, despite years of ballet dancing and practising it with pirouettes etc. I do think some people just have more aptitude for turning, and I wasn't one of them

I'm normally ok with a bit of dizziness (probably because of all that practice, even tho it wasn't my strong point). We did a load of new turns at class the other day, though, and the relentlessness of it really did make my head spin - definitely much easier in social dancing, when you would never turn constantly for that long
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Old 31-10-2014, 21:20
henrywilliams58
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Thanks Kaycee

Spotting works fine in salsa. I can do as many spot turns as the guy choses to lead (assuming he doesn't lead them off centre). But in AT there is a different type of turning its sort of walking around in a circle I suppose. I will see if I can dig out a clip[ to show you what I mean. It does sound more akin to VW.
Maybe this helps

How to Do the Grapevine | Argentine Tango

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkO0slLSyw

Forward / Side / Back / Side clockwise or anti-clockwise.
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Old 31-10-2014, 21:34
henrywilliams58
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Thanks franglemand, that's the feeling, exactly! I like the sound of that hand connection exercise.

I have tried leading at some classes (when there were far too many girls) and it is great fun and really interesting! Decided to concentrate on following for now tho as I'm not yet secure enough to avoid getting confused when I switch

Betty and Henry congrats on your good feedback, how lovely.,
Thanks so much. It took its time. I'm really beginning to ham it up now. No pyrotechnics - just feeling the music in my bones and passion.

One trick I employ now is to make friends with the DJ and get the music in advance. Then listen carefully to the music and plan out some rough choreography given the music. So there is very little dithering and apparently I am seen as "powerful", "driving", "great musicality" and "confident" and "what an amazing change in your dancing". Lovely feedback indeed. It is great finally seeming to get a bit of hang of it.
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Old 31-10-2014, 21:40
henrywilliams58
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... but I did an exercise once where one partner shut their eyes and the other tried to lead them back/ forward/ right/ left around the room using just the hand connection. We did it both ways (i.e. follower closing their eyes and then the leader doing it) so that you had an idea of what it felt like from each position. That was interesting because it really forced you to pay attention to the hand connection and, because we weren't doing proper steps, you couldn't guess what was coming next or try to work it out by watching.
On Tuesday the exercise at my AT class was the follower closes her eyes and the only connection was chest to chest and head to head.
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Old 31-10-2014, 23:26
An Thropologist
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Maybe this helps

How to Do the Grapevine | Argentine Tango

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnkO0slLSyw

Forward / Side / Back / Side clockwise or anti-clockwise.
It does help Henry.

Thank you that is a nice clean demonstration of a molinete/giro. All the examples I found were either adding other bits or not so cleanly demonstrated.

If spotting is an aptitude thing then it seems I have the aptitude because I have no problem spotting. I have done as many as 30 spot turns in a row. I don't make a habit of it (pointless exercise really) but there is a lead I dance salsa with who leads spot turns beautifully and sometimes as a bit of a joke will keep me turning and turning for many, many revolutions. This doesn't make me dizzy.

But the step demonstrated in the video does because the system of focusing on a place as your body turns and then whipping the head back to that spot just doesn't work. Instead of rotating on your own axis you are rotating around a shared access with your partner. So instead of being a rotating planet you are more of a satellite going around the planet.

I think this is probably more like the rotations in VW and why I seized upon what Brendan was saying. But I didn't catch it or understand it well enough to follow the instructions. Hence my enquiry.....

PS Curious they also call it a grapevine. I have learned a step we call grapevine in AT but its not that. It is a linear step of side, back, side, forward, side, back , side, forward etc. It moves one around the floor pretty fast. The molinete/giro holds the couple pretty well on the spot.
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Old 01-11-2014, 11:49
DiamondBetty
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Not a dance question but this thread is my happy place.

If anyone saw BBC breakfast today they might have seen me dancing (still drunk after two hours sleep &#128513
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Old 01-11-2014, 13:54
fawkes
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Amazing, Betty! I was out for a walk so didn't see the programme, but think I may have just seen pics of you/the group on my Facebook newsfeed... were you dancing with swing patrol?

PS have a good rest tonight
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Old 01-11-2014, 16:13
An Thropologist
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Wicked. You are the first lady on DS I regularly 'talk' to who has an actual face. I think from other threads I was able to work out which one you were! Nice outfit!
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Old 02-11-2014, 21:48
henrywilliams58
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Not a dance question but this thread is my happy place.

If anyone saw BBC breakfast today they might have seen me dancing (still drunk after two hours sleep &#128513
Link please.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:11
DiamondBetty
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Henry, I can't risk accidentally seeing it (but I know Swing Patrol posted on YouTube)

Fawkes, kinda! I dance/teach for Manchester Lindy and we were backing up Scott Cupit from Swing Patrol while he was in our town. We hosted a collaborative ball on the Saturday night. Was fun! Not restful though (and we also rehearsed our new all girl Jazz troupe, the Hotsy Totsys, for two hours on Saturday lunchtime - I am too old for this)!

Ann, ah yes. As well as the permanent decoration I have a penchant for ridiculous clothing. Do you do Facebook? We could formalise the face-sharing?


Back on topic - does anyone use orthotic insoles for dance? I've had problems with my knees off and on for years and I am currently firmly in an 'on' stage. It's 'runners knee' caused by an imbalance in my quadricep muscles (which in turn is caused by genetics, I have hips designed for child bearing, NOT exercising) and in order to ease it I've been working out with a personal trainer since May (I don't run anymore, by the way, directly due to this problem. I dance and weightlift for load bearing exercise and cycle/spin swim for non-load bearing).

I'm now starting to research corrective insoles (custom ones are out of budget until after Xmas) for under pronation/supination/ high arches and as I won't be putting them in a running shoe I was wondering if any dancers had experience of this?

Running shops can assess your gait and recommend trainers, but that's of no use to us, right?
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Old 03-11-2014, 20:21
JDarcy
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Quite a random question but I think this is the most likely place to get a proper answer

Why do a lot of the mens trousers have a shiny stripe down the sides? Is there a reason for it or is it purely aesthetic?
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Old 03-11-2014, 20:32
henrywilliams58
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Quite a random question but I think this is the most likely place to get a proper answer

Why do a lot of the mens trousers have a shiny stripe down the sides? Is there a reason for it or is it purely aesthetic?
Traditional Black Tie / Evening Dress wear. Even in Primark Evening (Black Tie / Tuxedo) suits have a stripe down the side. Not with White Tie though for the Waltz.

So which dances require White Tie (Full Evening Dress / Tails) and which require Black Tie.
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Old 03-11-2014, 20:48
bendymixer
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Traditional Black Tie / Evening Dress wear. Even in Primark Evening (Black Tie / Tuxedo) suits have a stripe down the side. Not with White Tie though for the Waltz.

So which dances require White Tie (Full Evening Dress / Tails) and which require Black Tie.
In the competition world ballroom is normally danced in tails
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Old 03-11-2014, 20:58
henrywilliams58
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I have never owned "White Tie" / Tails having hired a few times. Googling it seems it also has a stripe down the side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_tie

So in Ballroom are the ties White or Black?

Black Tails require White Ties not Black Ties.

Morning suit All Grey or Black coat & Grey trousers require normal not bow ties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_dress#Morning_suit
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Old 04-11-2014, 00:01
fawkes
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Henry, I can't risk accidentally seeing it (but I know Swing Patrol posted on YouTube)

Fawkes, kinda! I dance/teach for Manchester Lindy and we were backing up Scott Cupit from Swing Patrol while he was in our town. We hosted a collaborative ball on the Saturday night. Was fun! Not restful though (and we also rehearsed our new all girl Jazz troupe, the Hotsy Totsys, for two hours on Saturday lunchtime - I am too old for this)!

Back on topic - does anyone use orthotic insoles for dance?

I'm now starting to research corrective insoles (custom ones are out of budget until after Xmas) for under pronation/supination/ high arches and as I won't be putting them in a running shoe I was wondering if any dancers had experience of this?

Running shops can assess your gait and recommend trainers, but that's of no use to us, right?
Hi Betty (excuse selective quotation for space!) - ah right, thanks. No offence meant - I just saw the post on FB via swing patrol so thought you might be one of those dancers! The ball and jazz troupe sound great fun, glad you had a good time

I'm interested in insoles too, physio has recommended them - although I think for a rather different reason from yours, ie mine are for arch support. The ones I use are Sorbothane Pro and they are great for slipping inside heavier shoes. I wear them inside my workout trainers and all my winter shoes, but haven't found any that work with dance shoes yet (I wear Keds). Cost also a limiting factor for me in terms of looking into custom options! And I'm ashamed to say I didn't entirely give up wearing flats/sandals over the summer as the physio recommended

Look forward to hearing if you find some good dance specific solutions...
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Old 04-11-2014, 00:49
henrywilliams58
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Thanks for the link to the documentary Henry. I don't know how I came to miss that.

Disagree on the heads and chests point BTW.
Youtube suggested another one. Watching it now

One Tango Moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZMtZ_UZh_Y
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Old 04-11-2014, 15:02
kaycee
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Traditional Black Tie / Evening Dress wear. Even in Primark Evening (Black Tie / Tuxedo) suits have a stripe down the side. Not with White Tie though for the Waltz.

So which dances require White Tie (Full Evening Dress / Tails) and which require Black Tie.
Each round of a ballroom competition will consist of all 5 standard dances (occasionally VW will be left until semi- and final rounds), and traditionally all competitive ballroom dances require black tail suit; white shirt; white cummerbund and black bow tie ..... a "proper" bow tie that is, not a pre-tied 'pretend' one! It isn't a case of black tie for one dance, white for another. Navy, grey and brown tail suits are acceptable, but are less often seen.

All tail suits are custom made to fit the dancer by specialist tailors; they are a totally different fit and design to those you can buy off the peg or have made for weddings, etc.

It is also acceptable for lounge suits to be worn instead of tails. But again these are custom made to be proper fit for ballroom.
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Old 04-11-2014, 15:26
henrywilliams58
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Each round of a ballroom competition will consist of all 5 standard dances (occasionally VW will be left until semi- and final rounds), and traditionally all competitive ballroom dances require black tail suit; white shirt; white cummerbund and black bow tie ..... a "proper" bow tie that is, not a pre-tied 'pretend' one! It isn't a case of black tie for one dance, white for another. Navy, grey and brown tail suits are acceptable, but are less often seen.

All tail suits are custom made to fit the dancer by specialist tailors; they are a totally different fit and design to those you can buy off the peg or have made for weddings, etc.

It is also acceptable for lounge suits to be worn instead of tails. But again these are custom made to be proper fit for ballroom.
Quite so. Not the pretend pre-tied bow ties as seen on SCD even when they are dressing up.

It is good to be "cool" and casually untie a bow at the end of a function ...
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Old 04-11-2014, 15:50
kaycee
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Quite so. Not the pretend pre-tied bow ties as seen on SCD even when they are dressing up.

It is good to be "cool" and casually untie an bow at the end of a functio ...
BIB - and not get tut tutted at by the judges!!!!
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Old 04-11-2014, 16:19
An Thropologist
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Quite so. Not the pretend pre-tied bow ties as seen on SCD even when they are dressing up.

It is good to be "cool" and casually untie a bow at the end of a function ...
A victim of 1980's VW Golf advertising eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgHlAdSpn7Y
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Old 04-11-2014, 23:24
henrywilliams58
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The scriptwriter must have seen me doing it ...

Quote funny seeing blokes do that. The key is to do it first and throw down a challenge to others to follow if they can.
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