I have a question. , I still can't do a double pirouette, I can get to 1.5 and then I get stuck and have to hop round or lose balance. What can I do to improve this?

So Neil Jones has stepped up for supporting Karen and Marks rumba suggesting that what they were dancing was how rumba was danced today.

Now, I haven't been able to keep up with competitions and demos as much as I usually do this year, but has the rumba changed that much in the space of a year?

Now I know the whole WDSF v WDC debate but when it comes to the latter, their technique is a lot smoother and slower style (and a style I enjoy a lot more) to emphasise the technical aspect of the dancing, but I don't think it's become so slinky has it?

Well, yes it is, but within those routines danced by the top couples, there is still an element of basics in there. You will see a fair smattering of rumba walks, sliding doors and other basics. A good mix of the basics and show is best. Neil and Katya were fab at the Nationals by the way. I'm a huge fan.
Kaycee and Bendy will be better qualified to answer though

Wow, that's a lot of competitions! All the best with the future ballroom ones.

When people talk about leg action and 'pushing through the floor', is this exclusively for Latin dances? And what does it mean?

(I have all the grace and poise of an elephant, playing music rather than dancing is my thing. But I do love to see people excelling at and enjoying dancing, so I'm praying Simon's not in the dance off tonight.)

You need floor pressure for both ballroom and latin. People wrongly think of ballroom being light and graceful, almost balletic, but it is anything but. The lower body is working incredibly hard, and feet are really working into the floor. This and the use of the standing leg is where a ballroom dancer gets power from.
The use of legs in latin is different of course, but the leg and foot action within the ballroom dances differs too. The leg and foot action used in tango for example is completely different to the other dances, legs bent with constant lowered body, feet are placed on the floor rather than pushed/glided and we use an inside and outside edge of feet. No rise and fall. The action will differ again for foxtrot. Each dance has its won characteristic and for a competitive dancer is vital that this is shown.
The lower body will be pushing into the floor with the upper body being stretched up and towards your partner. A feeling of resistance always.
Hopefully Kaycee and/or Bendy will reply to the latin actions, if not, I 'll try and post a few lines later.

Yes content and technical basics is what I was getting at there. I don't think they're without the basics Thank you for answering my question.

I'm not nearly eloquent enough to talk at length about it the way you, bendy and kaycee etc. are so I enjoy just lurking in the shadows and read you talking so eloquently and knowledgeably about latin and ballroom great thread from you all! I might pluck up the courage to post more.

I also love Neil and Katya, great couple. Cheeky one is Neil.

Thank you for posting and please post again, and soon. There's no "one upmanship" on this thread, we all love dance and enjoy talking dance. Please read and post whatever you like, as they say, knowledge is key !

Thanks Jennifer, that makes a lot of sense. Ballroom looks so light and lovely, I've never appreciated all the work going on in the bottom half (and now my mind's truly boggling at the Quickstep).

I have a vague memory of Will Thorp's tango - mainly because the leg action that you described was so exaggerated to prevent the rise and fall that his bum was sticking out

FiercelyHip, I'd love to read your posts too! Love reading everything you marvellous dancers have to say.

If you want to see how a Foxtrot should look, please look at the Best and worst clips over the years thread", current at the moment. The last post is mine and I have included the link to a fox danced by Tim Howson and Jo Bolton. Absolute perfection

being older than most, for me in ballroom no one could touch a lad I watched from a youngster and still feel for me, he is mr foxtrot - andrew sinkinson here is a clip I know there was better overall dancers but always from a boy loved his foxtrot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9nOPUxjVrM

Quality dancing. Dancing at its best, gorgeous Lorraine Barry. One of my favourite lady dancers

Both of those foxtrots are stunning, it's like their feet are soulmates or something. The sheer elegance and how effortless it looks, it's just beautiful. Thanks for the links to the videos.

I have a question for you knowledgeable folk.

How much of a handicap would it have been for Karen to do that 'rumba' in bare feet, after presumably having always danced in heels throughout her career?

Speaking as someone with minimal experience - I'd hate to do any latin dance without heeled latin shoes. It must be something about how it distributes the weight or something. I think I read once that a higher heel will encourage your centre forward more which would help in latin.

Dancers use the floor in the same manner as do athletes, imagine energy as a red line down through your leg(s) and the further you push that line into the floor the more power you get back from the floor
Easy to picture if you think of a high jumper
The secret is in controlling the energy when pushing down or off for the forward drive
Sounds complicated but it really is a practised technique

Not a knowlegable folk here, but she has performed rumba and rumba-esque routines whilst barefoot before in burn the floor, and I believe she has some formal contemporary training, so I imagine it would be easier for her than someone who is solely a latin dancer and was not used to it?

Ah, it makes more sense now you point that out.
And it looked a lot more like one of those newfangled contempo-wotsit dances than a rumba!

Personally, I don't mind how many questions you ask. Always happy to answer if I can.

When I started dancing I learnt both ballroom and Latin together, and competed in both through the medallist system, and then onto the Open competitions. However, as I climbed up the tree (so to speak) I found it sensible to specialise on just one element; as an amateur I still had to work, and did not have the time to have lessons and practice for both elements (most of our lessons meant a round trip of nearly 200 miles!) and nor did I have the money for clothes etc., for both ballroom and Latin. When I turned pro, I continued with the one element, i.e Latin, which has always been my favourite. favourite. (In order to teach all round I did take further ballroom lessons, though still mainly teach Latin).

Hope that is what you wanted to know?

It could be you are not spotting enough. Our head being so heavy it can prevent no end of dance movements. Make sure that you know exactly the area you are going to spot on each turn, and then - as in any type of spin - start turning your body leaving your eyes on your chosen 'spot' for as long as possible, and then whip your head round so you can see that 'spot' again. Try it slowly at first and then speed up. Then practice practice practice until it really 'clicks', and you'll be mastering far more than 2 turns before long. (I believe - though ballet experts on here please feel free to correct me - that the record for pirouettes is 32!)

I would agree with Neil in that rumba today is far more romantic and "beautiful" as opposed to raunchy and sexy. I think part of reason for change is simply Yulia and Riccardo. Yulia is amazing (as you probably know); her style is very soft, feminine and rhythmical, and I think (I know!) that style is being emulated by other dancers, far more so than the equally talented and amazing Joanna who is more athletic, and some say, almost masculine in her approach. That is, of course, just my personal opinion.

However, I'm not sure I agree with Neil that Mark & Karen's rumba really falls into that category. The whole Latin action - particularly for rumba and cha cha cha - comes from the pressure of the ball of the foot into the floor. Without shoes that action was totally missing; when they walked, for example, it was just a plain walk, not a rumba walk.

I loved the routine, but I do think had they both worn proper Latin shoes, they may have succeeded to get some of the technique.

I agree re: WDSF v WDC, the latter is my taste; not sure it is necessarily slower, but certainly it is less bash-n-dash!

No handicap at all as she will no doubt have danced without shoes many times during her career. Dancers are nothing if not adaptable!!! However, for the rumba it resulted in a loss of proper rumba action as it becomes impossible to use real foot pressure into the floor which is what results in the hip action (Like Mark she had none!)

Very true, Karen was trained at the fame school in new york and as part of that probably did contemporary etc and well used to dancing with bare feet - indeed her and Kev (and Aljaz ) performed Halo in BTF with bare feet

Thank you Jennifer I was mesmerised by it at the time as apart from being gorgeous, it was not a run of the mill Strictly professionals dance. I still have it on my DVD/Hard Disk recorder. I wanted to include a link to it as it's not easy to find on Youtube - no mention of the dancers, and the dance is misnamed!

Not sure about the record... the 32 presumably is the famous 32 fouettes from Swan Lake. It's not unusual to see principal dancers struggling to complete that many, certainly to do them all cleanly and without excessive travel.

Lovely Jo, one of my teachers. Love her.