To answer your first question, when the feet and ankles are used correctly they will create the hip movement.

Rumba and cha cha cha should have a more rotational hip action, a figure-8 in fact. Jive is more of a side to side action. Paso is more of a 'marching' action, so there is less hip action - or, depending on the figure being danced - none at all.

The five standard ballroom dances are waltz, foxtrot, tango, quickstep and Viennese Waltz.
The five standard Latin dances are cha cha cha, samba, rumba, Paso Doble and jive.
These are the 10 dances used in competitions.

Salsa, Argentine tango, mambo etc etc are usually danced in their own clubs, and any competitions there are for these will be separate from the 10 standard dances above.

Thanks for your reply kaycee. I hope you don't mind if I ask you and others some more questions:

So hip movement comes from feet and legs? I ask because of watching numerous celebs wiggle hips without moving either feet or legs. Is hip movement without feet/legs ever appropriate to the dance?

If paso lacks definitive hip movement why is it classed as a latin and included in 10 dance? Why is it not treated as a separate speciality dance like some others, e.g. salsa?

You may not know the answer to this but why is salsa included as a standard dance in SCD if not a standard one in ballroom?

Again many thanks.

As SCD has grown bigger with more contestants, they've had to go outside of the traditional 10 dances in order to run for the appropriate length of weeks, hence why we now have American Smooth, Argentine Tango, Charleston and Salsa included

None of those were in the original few series'.

Thanks Cadiva. I don't think I've watched an early series consistently enough to realise that salsa was not part of the expected routines.

I can't think of any situations where the hip action would not be connected to the legs and feet. The hip action in the basic jive chasse for example is connected to the (soft) straightening of the knee and body rise at the end of the chasse and the subsequent change in direction of feet.

In terms of the 10 international style dances, I think they evolved by accident and are connected to the music that was fashionable at that time. It is easy to see a connection between the swing dances (foxtrot and quickstep) and the music of the day. In some cases music was adapted to make it more danceable by social dancers. e.g. Emphasis in Cha cha cha music.

Salsa and more authentic latin music have subsequently become more fashionable, as has the dance; hence its inclusion in Strictly.

The evolution of the 10 dances was also connected to individuals choosing to work on formalising the technique and steps for those particular dances. So for example Josephine Bradley did a lot of work on the standard dances. Pierre and Lavelle did a lot of work on the cha cha cha technique initially.

Sequence dancing includes different dances. American style also different dances.

Question for anyone with experience on the medalist circuit

How come juniors can dance for years and move up the grades in exams and comps then start at social dance test when they move on to adult competitions? Is there actually any difference in the difficulty of adult SDT and junior SDT? It seems to make the U35 category a bit unfair? And don't the ex-juniors get bored of being restricted to basic steps only?

deleted - sorry started to answer then realised the question related to medalist circuit.

BIB feet and leg: So technically speaking what is the view of conestants who stand still wiggling hips? I thought of this when viewing Matt and Flavia's rumba that was meant to be very good. He stands still wiggling his hips at some points and I wondered why.

Re-second bib, that might explain the inclusion of the Paso Doble but I don't understand why salsa, a Cuban dance like cha cha cha and rumba, was never included. May be there is no answer to this.

Salsa (like the meaning of the name salsa) is a mixture of dance styles including cha cha, son, merengue etc and started in it's early days as a bit of a dance craze in Cuba. Salsa emerged in the 50's and after Castro came to power and Cuba isolated distinct variations of the dance exist, Cuban, New York, Los Angeles among others

The Standard Latin dance tecniques were laid down much earlier than the 50's and though based on the dances from Latin America are quite different - Paso was developed in Southern France not spain though based on Spanish Music - Pierre Lavelle laid down a technique for it in the 30's in Paris (hence many paso steps are in french) as the dance was developed by latin teachers etc it then followed into the latin competitions

Thanks for that bendymixer. Ok I understand now why Salsa is not a standard 10 dance inclusion whilst the Paso Doble is included.

As I see it, part of the point of this thread is to discuss or answer just the sort of questions that you have raised, so NO definitely I don't mind you asking as many questions as you want, and I'm pretty sure others won't mind either.

It isn't so much the legs that create hip movement, it is feet and ankles. That is where the strength of movement comes from. Whereas in ballroom the feet should glide across the floor, in Latin the weight should go into the floor through the ball of the foot. You would be surprised how quickly a serious Latin dancer will wear holes in the soles of their shoes - and always from the inside of the shoe outwards. Hip movement that is done by solely by moving the hips is known as 'popping' and is usually pretty ugly. However, the celebs often have to resort to doing this as using the feet properly can take a long time to learn.

The use of hip movement isn't what defines the difference between Ballroom and Latin and just because Paso doesn't have a lot of hip movement doesn't mean it isn't classed as a Latin dance.

It might surprise you to know that Latin dance as we know it today, & as danced in competition, didn't exist as such until the 1950s. Before that there was jive, which was introduced in Europe by American GIs in the 1940s in the form of jitterbug, rock n roll, etc. As there were no Latin competition dances at the time, the jive became known as a ballroom dance. When tango became popular, because of originated in a Latin country, it was considered a Latin dance (though ballroom tango was started in France). Later, of course the 2 swapped places - thank goodness - imagine having to dance a jive in a long ballroom dress and court shoes!!

Salsa was introduced to Strictly, along with Charleston and Argentine Tango simply to bring in extra styles.

I think that the straightening of the leg (and weight of body over leg), the direction the knee bends, and the order of movement between knee and foot are also factors and so legs do matter, although I do agree that the main impetus for hip movement comes from the pressure of feet and ankles and so legs are a secondary element working in response. But everything is connected.

BIB, my goodness! I cannot conceive of jive in a ballroom dress!?! Equally the way that ballroom tango is danced does not lend itself to a latin routine.

Thanks for the informative reply. So the organisation and inclusion of dances is a history of the ballroom dances as we know it. I'm not sure why the idea of hip movement seems to define a latin dance for me.

Hi Ellie. I can't see any significant differences in the examination requirements for Junior and Adult. So I don't know. Could maybe understand starting again after juvenile since they are constrained height wise in respect of acquiring an optimum hold with their teacher. I rhink the mdeallit circuit can be slightly unfair anyway with some dancers staying down a level longer than the rules should allow.

Thank you for looking Ann. I had a feeling you might be a good person to ask.

Do you mean in the sense that you can just spend two years solidly winning everything without ever moving up? I don't really get why people are ok with winning against people who just aren't really competition for them. I placed well in every comp I went to this year but it wasn't a given - I had to work ridiculously hard for it. I wouldn't really want to breeze in and win everything because then it's kind of meaningless.

I'm guessing other circuits have similar sorts of things that seem unfair that you just have to deal with?

Very true.

I've heard of people bending the rules and staying down for more that two years. The problem is no-one checks the database, or at least that's how it used to be. Maybe they've sharpened things up now. Also people who have danced for a long time and even previously competed in open comps can belatedly take their medal tests and compete.

Also it can be a little bit lacking in inclusivity and some students can feel left out. I think everyone who wants to should be encouraged to do the competitions, within reason of course (pupil commitment, teacher availability etc), and I do know at least one school where that happens, However for some schools, it is about projecting an image and so only those certain to do well get asked.

Anyway, it sounds as if you are doing very well despite all that.

Mmmm yes, I have definitely noticed that too (dancing down grades when they should have moved on.) Maybe they are keeping more of an eye on it now but it definitely still happens. I still love competing on it... without it I wouldn't be able to compete at all and I love it.

I'm glad my dance school is so inclusive about it. They got me competing straight away and I immediately got the bug. I got absolutely nothing my first year (I got about two recalls and that was it!) and have done really well this year so very thankful my teachers didn't just give up on me because I wasn't winning trophies. Would hate to be with a school like that and it makes me sad to think of people missing out on the experience or even the most talented students feeling really pressured to do well. These competitions are meant to be fun after all! My teachers would always be encouraging and positive even after a bad result.

And thank you! I am very proud of my own personal progress and I suppose that's the main thing to focus on.

Where I grew up dancing (Asia) there are usually no restricted steps, no matter what level you dance in. Even beginners, novice, etc are allowed routines without step restrictions or dress restrictions. In some competitions, you get the same couple winning Novice and Amateur. In this way, I do think the UK/European way seems fairer, even though it may not be perfect.

Stumbled across this forum, this is a great thread! Love watching UK strictly! Beats our version of dancing with the stars hands down!

Welcome, hope you can continue to contribute from time to time. I am a great Troels and Ina Fan too...love their dancing. As relatively new professionals, with a few of the big name couples retired, will be interesting to see how they develop over time.

From what you say, I agree that the system we have in place here is better. It is good that at lower grades you are restricted in your variations, because at least you are being made to works at the basics of dance. Which is what it is all about.

Love your name TroelsandInaFan! A great latin couple!

I agree that it is a good idea to have restricted steps for beginners and novices (and the list of allowed steps is wide enough to be interesting and challenging).

Two recalls in the first year at your age, where it is really competitive, sounds a really good result to me. And even better now! Sounds to me like you are doing extremely well!

Just following on from Ann's post....well done Ellie. Keep up the good work. Do you practice on your own ? If not, it really can be invaluable. When I first started out, I used to practice on my own each and every morning, as best as I could at home. I did have a partner, but it great to practice alone too.

Later on, at comps, my partner and I still go out on to the (ballroom) floor and warm up alone, each dancing solo though our routines...

When jive was danced as a ballroom dance the dresses were a lot shorter, and the dance was very pedestrian compared to today. But I agree about the tango.

I hope I'm not selling you short when I ask if your dance experience has come mainly through Strictly? If this is the case (and I apologise profusely if I'm wrong) then the idea of the hip movement defining the Latin dances has possibly come from the judges, who's constant references to hip movement would make it sound as if it's the hip movement that makes the difference.

I agree up to a point, but it still remains that if the feet and ankles are used correctly the dancer doesn't need to deliberately straighten the knee, it will happen automatically. But, as you rightly say, everything is connected.