I havne't seen the comments on Kevin's left arm before or other pros, will have to look out for those!
Ballroom and Latin American Dance Questions
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I'd find commentary and critique of the way pros dance very interesting too.
I'd like to know what some here think of Tristan's dance technique in the salsa he danced with Jamelia. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wunq6YlcSX0. The bits that I find surprising for a pro are at 00:41 and 1:10-16. His movement in these sections seemed ungainly and not sharp. The choreography looked like dad dancing as well but that's another issue I have with it all!
I'd like to know what some here think of Tristan's dance technique in the salsa he danced with Jamelia. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wunq6YlcSX0. The bits that I find surprising for a pro are at 00:41 and 1:10-16. His movement in these sections seemed ungainly and not sharp. The choreography looked like dad dancing as well but that's another issue I have with it all!
Originally Posted by pabird:
“The Judges Vocus 100 percent on the celebs and right to do so but on here we could be critical of the professional flaws
For instance Kevin's dire left arm position (horizontal) during any spin movement
Any medallists would be told how to correct such flawed action”
“The Judges Vocus 100 percent on the celebs and right to do so but on here we could be critical of the professional flaws
For instance Kevin's dire left arm position (horizontal) during any spin movement
Any medallists would be told how to correct such flawed action”
So here's Kevin waltzing from last week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJrBiXQYMQ and there are a number of spins beginning at about 00:49 and the camera is close enough to see his left arm clearly. How should his arm be held?
Originally Posted by MaggieMcGee:
“So here's Kevin waltzing from last week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJrBiXQYMQ and there are a number of spins beginning at about 00:49 and the camera is close enough to see his left arm clearly. How should his arm be held?”
“So here's Kevin waltzing from last week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJrBiXQYMQ and there are a number of spins beginning at about 00:49 and the camera is close enough to see his left arm clearly. How should his arm be held?”
In my opinion, his entire left side is too open. His left arm, ( always difficult to describe without demonstrating) from the elbow to wrist should be approx 45 deg. instead of the horizontal look in the clip. The joined hands should be ideally eye level or slightly lower if the lady is shorter, and the position should be held midway between the man and lady.
Originally Posted by Jennifer_F:
“In my opinion, his entire left side is too open. His left arm, ( always difficult to describe without demonstrating) from the elbow to wrist should be approx 45 deg. instead of the horizontal look in the clip. The joined hands should be ideally eye level or slightly lower if the lady is shorter, and the position should be held midway between the man and lady.”
“In my opinion, his entire left side is too open. His left arm, ( always difficult to describe without demonstrating) from the elbow to wrist should be approx 45 deg. instead of the horizontal look in the clip. The joined hands should be ideally eye level or slightly lower if the lady is shorter, and the position should be held midway between the man and lady.”
Thanks for the reply. I don't get it because, as you write, it's hard to describe without demonstration but at least I can more attention to what pro male dancers do with their left arms.
Originally Posted by MaggieMcGee:
“I'd find commentary and critique of the way pros dance very interesting too.
I'd like to know what some here think of Tristan's dance technique in the salsa he danced with Jamelia. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wunq6YlcSX0. The bits that I find surprising for a pro are at 00:41 and 1:10-16. His movement in these sections seemed ungainly and not sharp. The choreography looked like dad dancing as well but that's another issue I have with it all!”
“I'd find commentary and critique of the way pros dance very interesting too.
I'd like to know what some here think of Tristan's dance technique in the salsa he danced with Jamelia. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wunq6YlcSX0. The bits that I find surprising for a pro are at 00:41 and 1:10-16. His movement in these sections seemed ungainly and not sharp. The choreography looked like dad dancing as well but that's another issue I have with it all!”
I get a different clip when I click on this but maybe just me, but would interested to see the sections you mean and what people think!
Originally Posted by Elan:
“I get a different clip when I click on this but maybe just me, but would interested to see the sections you mean and what people think!”
“I get a different clip when I click on this but maybe just me, but would interested to see the sections you mean and what people think!”
http://youtu.be/Dmi02lil4Ts
Try this clip, using the same time references.
I agree with the poster, Tristan looked sloppy in those parts!
Originally Posted by Elan:
“I get a different clip when I click on this but maybe just me, but would interested to see the sections you mean and what people think!”
“I get a different clip when I click on this but maybe just me, but would interested to see the sections you mean and what people think!”
I'm so sorry. Don't know how I managed to post that link instead. Here's the one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmi02lil4Ts
What's the deal with the WDC (World Dance Council) and the WDSF (World Dance Sport Federation)? Wiki makes it seem like WDC is more for pro, WDSF more for amateur. What's it mean in practice? Whose events are better to go to as either a spectator or competitor?
Originally Posted by CravenHaven:
“What's the deal with the WDC (World Dance Council) and the WDSF (World Dance Sport Federation)? Wiki makes it seem like WDC is more for pro, WDSF more for amateur. What's it mean in practice? Whose events are better to go to as either a spectator or competitor?”
“What's the deal with the WDC (World Dance Council) and the WDSF (World Dance Sport Federation)? Wiki makes it seem like WDC is more for pro, WDSF more for amateur. What's it mean in practice? Whose events are better to go to as either a spectator or competitor?”
In my opinion, WDC is best. The top Pro's and Amateurs of not just UK, but the World compete under WDC. I know of top Ballroom Pro's ( former world champions) who really do not like the direction that WDSF has headed. Matter of opinion of course, but this is mine.
Originally Posted by MaggieMcGee:
“I'm so sorry. Don't know how I managed to post that link instead. Here's the one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmi02lil4Ts”
“I'm so sorry. Don't know how I managed to post that link instead. Here's the one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmi02lil4Ts”
Sorry, can't help with Salsa, hopefully someone else can !!
The aims of the organisations and the style of dancing are quite different and so there are some aesthetic differences as well as political. WDSF views dancing more as a sport.
Go to both and see which you prefer.
However, I agree with Jennifer that the top dancers tend to compete under WDC, especially in the UK. Nevertheless, there have been some really good WDSF dancers. Mirko Gozzoli and Edita Daniute moved to WDSF after competing in WDC (Mirko was a WDC world champ with his former partner Alessia, but didn't get the same level of success in WDC with Edita). I think they were wonderful; they are retired now though. Quite different in style to WDC champions Arunas Bizokas and Katusha Demidova.
I also know little about salsa. Sorry Maggie!
Go to both and see which you prefer.
However, I agree with Jennifer that the top dancers tend to compete under WDC, especially in the UK. Nevertheless, there have been some really good WDSF dancers. Mirko Gozzoli and Edita Daniute moved to WDSF after competing in WDC (Mirko was a WDC world champ with his former partner Alessia, but didn't get the same level of success in WDC with Edita). I think they were wonderful; they are retired now though. Quite different in style to WDC champions Arunas Bizokas and Katusha Demidova.
I also know little about salsa. Sorry Maggie!
Originally Posted by CravenHaven:
“What's the deal with the WDC (World Dance Council) and the WDSF (World Dance Sport Federation)? Wiki makes it seem like WDC is more for pro, WDSF more for amateur. What's it mean in practice? Whose events are better to go to as either a spectator or competitor?”
“What's the deal with the WDC (World Dance Council) and the WDSF (World Dance Sport Federation)? Wiki makes it seem like WDC is more for pro, WDSF more for amateur. What's it mean in practice? Whose events are better to go to as either a spectator or competitor?”
I agree totally with Jennifer's post above; I too far prefer the WDC. I know it can be thought of as controversial in some quarters, but I believe the very very best dancers - or those aiming to be the very best - dance WDC, the rest head for WDSF. A WDC World Champion, for example, would generally be thought of more highly than a WDFS World Champion.
Again controversially, and perhaps over simplifying, the WDC aims for class and technique, the WDSF goes more along the lines of speed and bash 'n dash.
Which events are best for a spectator? It's all a matter of taste.
Originally Posted by MaggieMcGee:
“I'm so sorry. Don't know how I managed to post that link instead. Here's the one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmi02lil4Ts”
“I'm so sorry. Don't know how I managed to post that link instead. Here's the one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmi02lil4Ts”
I might be 100 % wrong but i think those moves are taking off the Cameron Diaz dance moves in the Charlie's Angel film, which was their film, and which is deliberately silly dancing. Might that be it?
This is a good comparison of WDC versus WDSF. It doesn't go into details about the politics.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DanceSport/...wdsf_and_the/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DanceSport/...wdsf_and_the/?
Originally Posted by MaggieMcGee:
“I'd find commentary and critique of the way pros dance very interesting too.
I'd like to know what some here think of Tristan's dance technique in the salsa he danced with Jamelia. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wunq6YlcSX0. The bits that I find surprising for a pro are at 00:41 and 1:10-16. His movement in these sections seemed ungainly and not sharp. The choreography looked like dad dancing as well but that's another issue I have with it all!”
“I'd find commentary and critique of the way pros dance very interesting too.
I'd like to know what some here think of Tristan's dance technique in the salsa he danced with Jamelia. Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wunq6YlcSX0. The bits that I find surprising for a pro are at 00:41 and 1:10-16. His movement in these sections seemed ungainly and not sharp. The choreography looked like dad dancing as well but that's another issue I have with it all!”
I hope I can help Maggie. Salsa is not a ballroom dance and does not fit into the category of ballroom Latin either, but I dance both Colombian and Cuban salsa (for last 15 years) so I know what to look for.
There is a very simple answer to your question. Tristan does not actually do one single authentic salsa step in that routine
He never ever does the basic - which is a 123 (4pause) 567 beat, and there are no authentic turns. It looks to me like he is doing a mish mash of bad samba/mambo moves. I like the man, but this is not his dance.With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done
Originally Posted by sofakat:
“I hope I can help Maggie. Salsa is not a ballroom dance and does not fit into the category of ballroom Latin either, but I dance both Colombian and Cuban salsa (for last 15 years) so I know what to look for.
There is a very simple answer to your question. Tristan does not actually do one single authentic salsa step in that routine He never ever does the basic - which is a 123 (4pause) 567 beat, and there are no authentic turns. It looks to me like he is doing a mish mash of bad samba/mambo moves. I like the man, but this is not his dance.
With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done”
“I hope I can help Maggie. Salsa is not a ballroom dance and does not fit into the category of ballroom Latin either, but I dance both Colombian and Cuban salsa (for last 15 years) so I know what to look for.
There is a very simple answer to your question. Tristan does not actually do one single authentic salsa step in that routine
He never ever does the basic - which is a 123 (4pause) 567 beat, and there are no authentic turns. It looks to me like he is doing a mish mash of bad samba/mambo moves. I like the man, but this is not his dance.With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done
”
Thank you for your in-depth reply Sofakat, its very interesting.
Originally Posted by sofakat:
“With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done”
“With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done
”
Very nice, and I agree smooth but neat. Is that fully or partially choreographed? The parts out of hold suggest some choreography (or maybe just familiarity with what follows a particular lead), but it also looks quite relaxed and natural.
Originally Posted by Ann_Dancer:
“Very nice, and I agree smooth but neat. Is that fully or partially choreographed? The parts out of hold suggest some choreography (or maybe just familiarity with what follows a particular lead), but it also looks quite relaxed and natural.”
“Very nice, and I agree smooth but neat. Is that fully or partially choreographed? The parts out of hold suggest some choreography (or maybe just familiarity with what follows a particular lead), but it also looks quite relaxed and natural.”
No, none of it is choreographed. It is an improvised demo at one of his classes in Edinburgh and what they are doing is really what a good salsa dancer would do naturally in a salsa club.
Some of the added movements are Cuban rumba, which some dancers love. Some add 'son'. That's where the personal styling comes in.
Every move has a name and can be danced in any order. The lead is in control and you learn to follow very naturally, once you nail the beat (it is drummed into you). You learn to focus absolutely on the lead (around the area of the chest) and keep your right hand and arm very soft so that you can be moved in any direction but stay within the 'circle of contact'.
That's interesting. Thankyou sofakat.
(Soft arm and hand when taking lead in latin dances: not one of my strengths!
)
(Soft arm and hand when taking lead in latin dances: not one of my strengths!
)
Originally Posted by sofakat:
“I hope I can help Maggie. Salsa is not a ballroom dance and does not fit into the category of ballroom Latin either, but I dance both Colombian and Cuban salsa (for last 15 years) so I know what to look for.
There is a very simple answer to your question. Tristan does not actually do one single authentic salsa step in that routine He never ever does the basic - which is a 123 (4pause) 567 beat, and there are no authentic turns. It looks to me like he is doing a mish mash of bad samba/mambo moves. I like the man, but this is not his dance.
With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done”
“I hope I can help Maggie. Salsa is not a ballroom dance and does not fit into the category of ballroom Latin either, but I dance both Colombian and Cuban salsa (for last 15 years) so I know what to look for.
There is a very simple answer to your question. Tristan does not actually do one single authentic salsa step in that routine
He never ever does the basic - which is a 123 (4pause) 567 beat, and there are no authentic turns. It looks to me like he is doing a mish mash of bad samba/mambo moves. I like the man, but this is not his dance.With an apology to the ballroom experts here, here's a link to a professional Cuban salsa dancer doing a demo. Yamil was my teacher in Cuba: he danced with the Cutumba Ballet Folklorico company in Santiago. You will see how smooth and balanced his movements are and how strong and steady his lead. The basic step is not huge, it is neat and precise, which means they keep to the rhythm and beat. Neat turns and no waving, flapping 'armography' (very LA Style).
Good salsa should be based on a steady basic - always - even if you are doing the hybrid cross body New York or LA style versions. Colombian is different again and much, much faster - but you rarely see it in the UK these days.
Hope this helps show how it should be done
”
Thank you sofakat for such a comprehensive reply and for the video link. It's so interesting to see authentic salsa and compare it to the version we see on SCD. The couple dancing make it look effortless and seem quite unassuming until you consider the speed and fluency throughout theor bodies. What struck me about them, which is my objection to Tristan in his salsa with Jamelia, is the economy of style and the 'neat' movements. Tristan's stance seemed too wide and he was florid, for want of a better word, which seemed wrong to me and you seem to confirm this with what you write concerning the basic step.
Yamil looks from the video and sounds, from your description, like a very interesting man. Is that you dancing with him ..?
He's a very expressive dancer and yet he seems to do little. Love his pelvic movement at 00:52-ish. Is he Cuban?If you don't mind may I ask when you write "Good salsa should be based on a steady basic" would this be similar to the constant movement in rumba? I know the steps and style will be different but given both are Cuban dances do they flow in the same way?
Thanks again.
Originally Posted by jtnorth:
“I might be 100 % wrong but i think those moves are taking off the Cameron Diaz dance moves in the Charlie's Angel film, which was their film, and which is deliberately silly dancing. Might that be it?”
“I might be 100 % wrong but i think those moves are taking off the Cameron Diaz dance moves in the Charlie's Angel film, which was their film, and which is deliberately silly dancing. Might that be it?”
Hi jtnorth - you might be right but as I can't recall the dance in the film, though I remember the scene vaguely, I'm not sure. Mind you my objection to him is throughout; his movements seemed vulgar. I chose those specific moments int he dance because they seemed the most 'offensive', if I might use such a strong word, in terms of salsa.
Originally Posted by sofakat:
“No, none of it is choreographed. It is an improvised demo at one of his classes in Edinburgh and what they are doing is really what a good salsa dancer would do naturally in a salsa club.
Some of the added movements are Cuban rumba, which some dancers love. Some add 'son'. That's where the personal styling comes in.
Every move has a name and can be danced in any order. The lead is in control and you learn to follow very naturally, once you nail the beat (it is drummed into you). You learn to focus absolutely on the lead (around the area of the chest) and keep your right hand and arm very soft so that you can be moved in any direction but stay within the 'circle of contact'.”
“No, none of it is choreographed. It is an improvised demo at one of his classes in Edinburgh and what they are doing is really what a good salsa dancer would do naturally in a salsa club.
Some of the added movements are Cuban rumba, which some dancers love. Some add 'son'. That's where the personal styling comes in.
Every move has a name and can be danced in any order. The lead is in control and you learn to follow very naturally, once you nail the beat (it is drummed into you). You learn to focus absolutely on the lead (around the area of the chest) and keep your right hand and arm very soft so that you can be moved in any direction but stay within the 'circle of contact'.”
Read this reply after posting mine. Well that's amazing that it is improvised. No wonder they looked like they were having fun. Also very interested in the added rumba moves.
I don't quite get the bib. Wish I did as it sounds key to salsa.
Originally Posted by MaggieMcGee:
“
Yamil looks from the video and sounds, from your description, like a very interesting man. Is that you dancing with him ..? He's a very expressive dancer and yet he seems to do little. Love his pelvic movement at 00:52-ish. Is he Cuban?
If you don't mind may I ask when you write "Good salsa should be based on a steady basic" would this be similar to the constant movement in rumba? I know the steps and style will be different but given both are Cuban dances do they flow in the same way?
Thanks again.”
“
Yamil looks from the video and sounds, from your description, like a very interesting man. Is that you dancing with him ..?
He's a very expressive dancer and yet he seems to do little. Love his pelvic movement at 00:52-ish. Is he Cuban?If you don't mind may I ask when you write "Good salsa should be based on a steady basic" would this be similar to the constant movement in rumba? I know the steps and style will be different but given both are Cuban dances do they flow in the same way?
Thanks again.
”
Very happy to help
Yes, Yamil Ferrara is a truly lovely man, and no that's not me! Here's a link to his site. It gives you all the details about his background (yes, he is Cuban). He's now based in Edinburgh with his wife Kath. There are some great videos on the site, including one of him dancing 'son' - a beautiful Cuban dance which I fell in love with. There is also a show dance of salsa. Click on Gallery.
Cuban rumba is a million miles away from ballroom rumba, even though it's roots are Cuban. There's a rumba demo on Yamil's site.
Goodness, there is some awesome expertise in here! Between you you seem to have all areas of dance expertise covered.
I was interested in the criticism of some of the pro's - particularly Kevin, who I understand has been pretty successful in comps. Is participating in Strictly actually degrading their dance technique, do you think?
I was interested in the criticism of some of the pro's - particularly Kevin, who I understand has been pretty successful in comps. Is participating in Strictly actually degrading their dance technique, do you think?
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