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Old 20-12-2015, 13:57
MaggieMcGee
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Wishing all that read this thread a very Happy Christmas and New Year. Wishing you all the best for 2016.
Thanks Jennifer. The same to you and yours. Many appreciations to you, Ann, bendy and kaycee for providing reliable opinion on the ballroom dances. All being well I shall see you here next year.
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Old 20-12-2015, 14:11
kaycee
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Thanks for the answers... Jennifer F - I liked your answer in the 'Clifton manipulation' thread about questionable hold from the professionals in a previous Tango routine from then; all I can say is it explains the confusion at times between the two. I think it's because of that that Kellie's hold looked very much it was from the Waltz to me yesterday but apologies for that.

In terms of the winner, I'd say Jay was the stronger dancer throughout the series though he didn't have a fantastic final. But both Georgia and Kellie have both survived weaker performances so the question is should a one off night decide the result? Is Strictly a league competition or a cup final... or both? I guess the public decide in the end.
I think the thing about Strictly is for the majority of people it isn't about the technical side of dancing, it is about who gives them the most pleasure to watch. The judges have to judge the dance they see, and TBH I thought they had the scoreboard completely in the right order. But viewers are told to vote for their favourite which is something different. Jay was the only one never the have been in the DO, despite a few dodgy dances, and if some of the DS threads are to be believed Kevin and Kellie were far from popular. So where only the viewers votes count, Jay was the winner. It isn't the first time the best dancers have missed out, and it is unlikely to be the last.

As for your questions about tango hold (which Jennifer has clearly answered) please please do not feel you need to at asking for something to be explained - that is what this thread of for. And a very nice thread it is too!
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Old 20-12-2015, 14:13
kaycee
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Thanks Jennifer. The same to you and yours. Many appreciations to you, Ann, bendy and kaycee for providing reliable opinion on the ballroom dances. All being well I shall see you here next year.
Many thanks, Maggie. Have a great Christmas.
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Old 20-12-2015, 14:42
bendymixer
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yes Happy 'Christmas to you all and wishing everyone a wonderful New Year
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Old 20-12-2015, 15:17
Mr Cellophane
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Thanks Jennifer. The same to you and yours. Many appreciations to you, Ann, bendy and kaycee for providing reliable opinion on the ballroom dances. All being well I shall see you here next year.

Seconded. Sometimes this thread is the only sane place to be!


I think the thing about Strictly is for the majority of people it isn't about the technical side of dancing, it is about who gives them the most pleasure to watch. The judges have to judge the dance they see, and TBH I thought they had the scoreboard completely in the right order. But viewers are told to vote for their favourite which is something different.

BiB - my take on it exactly. It's why I loved Abbey, in spite of the fact that she was not technically the best (and Lord knows, we were told that often enough by her detractors!) - she was just terrific to watch.
This year Georgia, in her Charleston particularly, did it for me. As Craig said, he just loved to watch her dance.
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Old 21-12-2015, 12:39
Ellie_
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Another great series ladies and gents. Hope everyone has a great christmas. thanks to everyone who posted for making this thread so great.

I agree with you, jennifer, that based on the final kellie and kevin were the most deserving. I wonder if their fred and ginger "wow" moment had come earlier in the series they might have had an easier time.
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Old 21-12-2015, 13:53
Everlong Girl
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Hello all - this is my first time on this particular thread.

I've been reading the posts about what constitutes a ballroom hold and a tango hold and unfortunately I'm one of those people who needs to see it rather than read it.

So - sorry for repeating this question again - but in a slightly different way. Out of all of the couples on this year's series who had the best ballroom hold (and posture/positioning) and who had the best tango hold + posture/positioning during their tango?

I ask it this way so can then go on YouTube and see for myself and know what to look out for when I watch in the future.

Sorry for my rather dumbed down question.
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:13
Ellie_
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I'll let someone else answer properly, but in the meantime this post from bendymixer in the judges manipulation thread could be helpful.

nothing wrong with hold first pic from tango and world champs second kellie what was wrong with kellies ?? or is my training wrong ???


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i5...psni9czz5d.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i5...psyhvn5igc.jpg
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:31
Ann_Dancer
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Tango posture and hold explained www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw1hUpunZVo
Tango demonstrated www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E5OSvlp6ci


I can't find a short simple video that describes the posture for the other dances but this has some nice demos as well as a section about poise at the beginming. It's long and detailed though. http://Www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...&v=SXGJQedn4tM
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Old 21-12-2015, 15:10
pabird
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Tango posture and hold explained www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw1hUpunZVo
Tango demonstrated www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E5OSvlp6ci


I can't find a short simple video that describes the posture for the other dances but this has some nice demos as well as a section about poise at the beginming. It's long and detailed though. http://Www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...&v=SXGJQedn4tM
Both samples also demonstrate the drama in movement and attitude of the dancers

Missing in the K and K final offering in the final

Merry Christmas all
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Old 21-12-2015, 16:44
Ann_Dancer
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Yes, Merry Christmas everyone!
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Old 22-12-2015, 01:43
Joanne_West
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I thought the contact was really good. I only saw them lose contact momentarily on a promenade. There are no rules that say the bodies of a couple MUST be in contact all of the dance (especially when in fast flight where you may lose some contact as a trade off). However, it is generally accepted that it improves movement, synchronisation and posture if you are in close contact most of the time. Regarding your last sentence, this thread is raised to discuss specific details of ballroom technique, and to keep away from emotive comment.
Thanks. Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be emotive, just prefer a more traditional vw and even the judges found the boom shake the room thing bizarre.
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Old 22-12-2015, 02:31
Cadiva
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It isn't the first time the best dancers have missed out, and it is unlikely to be the last.
I don't think Kellie was the best dancer throughout the series and as the public are told to vote for their favourites, it's no great surprise when they do that in the final imo.

Dance is so subjective they couldn't possibly have a public vote at all if they were basing in on who did it best because only one of the judges' has a background in Ballroom and Latin competition to be able to "tell" the public what they "should" be voting on/looking for - like they used to do in the early series' of SCD, the competitors aren't starting from a level playing field - i.e. males competing against females, people of different basic abilities etc.

I've reviewed professional dance during my career, so I think I have a fairly reasonable level of technical knowledge to make a decision but that still doesn't stop me from being emotionally involved in an utterly irrational way.

As I said elsewhere, my head thinks Jay's been possibly the most technically gifted celebrity the show's had, my heart says he absolutely captivates me when he dances and my cannot explain it at all bit is emotionally effected the second he steps foot on the floor and begins to dance whether it's technically perfect or a wow factor performance.

I have friends who are/have been professional dancers in both Ballroom/Latin and in other genres and their views were as many and varied as these forums as to whether the right couple won or not

And a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:25
Jennifer_F
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[quote=Everlong Girl;80827700.

So - sorry for repeating this question again - but in a slightly different way. Out of all of the couples on this year's series who had the best ballroom hold (and posture/positioning) and who had the best tango hold + posture/positioning during their tango?

I ask it this way so can then go on YouTube and see for myself and know what to look out for when I watch in the future.

Sorry for my rather dumbed down question.[/QUOTE]

I would recommend that you go on youtube and watch top Pro;s rather than look at the SCD celebs, as you will see straight away what it should look like.
If you look at couples such as Mirko Gozzoli/Alessia Betti - Arunas Bizokas/Katusha Demidova- Valeri Colantoni/Monica Nigro - Domen Krapez/Natascha Karabey....
Absolutely fabulous dancers, if you have time, watch other dances too, not just the Tango and you will see how the styles and characteristics of each dance are so different.
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:48
Ann_Dancer
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Thanks. Sorry, I wasn't meaning to be emotive, just prefer a more traditional vw and even the judges found the boom shake the room thing bizarre.
No problem. I think I was being a bit too school marmy there. . Actually I do accept your point about the choreography. In ballroom, I do prefer it to be elegant and flowing.
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Old 22-12-2015, 07:59
Jennifer_F
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I would recommend that you go on youtube and watch top Pro;s rather than look at the SCD celebs, as you will see straight away what it should look like.
If you look at couples such as Mirko Gozzoli/Alessia Betti - Arunas Bizokas/Katusha Demidova- Valeri Colantoni/Monica Nigro - Domen Krapez/Natascha Karabey....
Absolutely fabulous dancers, if you have time, watch other dances too, not just the Tango and you will see how the styles and characteristics of each dance are so different.
Of course, the most obvious one that I have missed is Jo Clifton and Paulo Bosco. Seeing is believing !
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Old 22-12-2015, 20:54
Mirliton
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In an ideal world, there should be no gapping in any ballroom dance, but the reality is that it does happen, and at the highest level too. Non dancers have no idea how difficult it is to keep connection throughout the dance, and of course it is something that you learn over time. It is the job of the lady to "fill the gap" mostly as her body weight should be travelling forward to her partner even though she is ( normally) travelling backwards.
(My bold)

Thanks Jennifer, that's very interesting, not least because it presents a counter view to what we viewers are regularly fed about the male celebs having the hardest time because they have to lead, and the implication of that therefore being that the female celebs have it relatively easy!

I also remember someone (may have been you, can't remember now), saying that on Strictly, the pieces are choreographed and each couple has the floor to themselves, and as a result, the male celeb doesn't actually have to lead the female pro.

I'm therefore inclined to think the female celebs do not have it any easier than the male celebs at all. Like some others here, I thought Kellie did extremely well.
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Old 22-12-2015, 21:56
MaggieMcGee
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Dear latin and ballroom dancers, I have another question before Christmas ...

What's the difference between a world champion title in the ballroom world and an international open title?
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:08
Jennifer_F
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Dear latin and ballroom dancers, I have another question before Christmas ...

What's the difference between a world champion title in the ballroom world and an international open title?
They are just different competitions Maggie, though both top notch. Just like an athlete can be an Olympic medallist and a European Champion for example....both top events, just different events / competitions.
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Old 22-12-2015, 22:49
MaggieMcGee
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They are just different competitions Maggie, though both top notch. Just like an athlete can be an Olympic medallist and a European Champion for example....both top events, just different events / competitions.
Many thanks JenniferF. You're so good at replying to queries. An excellent thread host.
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Old 23-12-2015, 06:03
Jennifer_F
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Many thanks JenniferF. You're so good at replying to queries. An excellent thread host.
Thank you !
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Old 23-12-2015, 06:16
Jennifer_F
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(My bold)

Thanks Jennifer, that's very interesting, not least because it presents a counter view to what we viewers are regularly fed about the male celebs having the hardest time because they have to lead, and the implication of that therefore being that the female celebs have it relatively easy!

I also remember someone (may have been you, can't remember now), saying that on Strictly, the pieces are choreographed and each couple has the floor to themselves, and as a result, the male celeb doesn't actually have to lead the female pro.

I'm therefore inclined to think the female celebs do not have it any easier than the male celebs at all. Like some others here, I thought Kellie did extremely well.
Hi - yes it probably was me !
Firstly not taking anything away from the hard work that the lady celebs have put in, they simply would not have the skill of knowing how to follow. The lead is not just the man pushing/pulling or steering. It is far more subtle than that. Its two bodies dancing as one, as lady, you are in tune with what your partner is "telling" you to do through body connection.

The man leads through his body but through his back, with the ladies weight coming forward by relaxing through her legs and knees, there is a resistance or light pressure.
The lady will always have the feel that her weight is coming forward even though she is dancing backwards, to keep this light pressure, without this you cannot really monitor as well. An exercise that we often use in our practice is to dance with a CD or Tea towel between us, and it should not drop no matter what you are dancing.

The man will dance groups with correct alignment through feet and body, the lady will instinctively know - if this is lead correctly - what groups the man is dancing. This is something that you really learn over time. I remember one particular Championships at Blackpool and there were so many couples on the floor, we could not dance what we had planned, my partner just had to look for the spaces on the floor to dance. He made up the whole routine as he went along and I just had to relax and follow.

There is no doubt that the lady celebs have it easier to look good. They still have to learn the steps etc, but they are dancing with a Pro who will have a good frame from which to dance. The male celeb will also have to learn how to hold a good frame ( rarely they do as it takes a long time to master) and look as though he is leading.
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Old 23-12-2015, 09:31
pabird
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Hi - yes it probably was me !
Firstly not taking anything away from the hard work that the lady celebs have put in, they simply would not have the skill of knowing how to follow. The lead is not just the man pushing/pulling or steering. It is far more subtle than that. Its two bodies dancing as one, as lady, you are in tune with what your partner is "telling" you to do through body connection.

The man leads through his body but through his back, with the ladies weight coming forward by relaxing through her legs and knees, there is a resistance or light pressure.
The lady will always have the feel that her weight is coming forward even though she is dancing backwards, to keep this light pressure, without this you cannot really monitor as well. An exercise that we often use in our practice is to dance with a CD or Tea towel between us, and it should not drop no matter what you are dancing.

The man will dance groups with correct alignment through feet and body, the lady will instinctively know - if this is lead correctly - what groups the man is dancing. This is something that you really learn over time. I remember one particular Championships at Blackpool and there were so many couples on the floor, we could not dance what we had planned, my partner just had to look for the spaces on the floor to dance. He made up the whole routine as he went along and I just had to relax and follow.

There is no doubt that the lady celebs have it easier to look good. They still have to learn the steps etc, but they are dancing with a Pro who will have a good frame from which to dance. The male celeb will also have to learn how to hold a good frame ( rarely they do as it takes a long time to master) and look as though he is leading.
Obvious agreement but would add two issues
The male lead gets his top with relaxed shoulder line and diaphragm/hand pressure

And secondly Jay did lead on his own on the floor and when they all danced together

Jay has a :top: that many dancers struggle to achieve over a protracted period of lessons and practise
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Old 23-12-2015, 09:50
Jennifer_F
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Obvious agreement but would add two issues
The male lead gets his top with relaxed shoulder line and diaphragm/hand pressure

And secondly Jay did lead on his own on the floor and when they all danced together

Jay has a :top: that many dancers struggle to achieve over a protracted period of lessons and practise
Obviously my comments are in their very basic sense, no point in going into too much detail here as most would not understand. My teachers for example teach 15 points of connection between the couples, pick up and projection is of paramount importance as is the volume between the couples heads and the volume and fullness of movement they create. Dancers have to have very strong back muscles to hold the backline and frame in place. There is a very precise way in which you connect the connecting hands and thumb placing. It is very involved as you are aware of course.
As you dance, you will be aware that all teachers methods of training will differ slightly and as such, opinions and views will slightly differ as it seems, ours do.
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Old 23-12-2015, 12:07
Ann_Dancer
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I agree that approach to lead and follow can be variable. When my dance teacher changed his partner and coach, I found his approach to teaching me completely changed. This was due to the fact that his female coach (a very well known dancer) and new partner were a lot more powerful in their style of dancing. I suddenly found I had to take a lot more responsbility in the partnership.
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