I think the word accusation is a bit strong, Bendy was only airing thoughts out a loud, as we all do. Not really the same thing. Its my opinion that the routine was not very good to start with, and was not danced well at all. There is no disguising those facts at all. I do like Oti as a dancer but there is no doubts that she landed on her feet with Danny as her celeb. Danny really is not very good at ballroom and if they have ballroom next week, will have to knuckle down and nail the technique. Hopefully if he has an Fox based AS he will be able to take what he has learned from the Foxtrot and build on that.

They should all have one Ballroom, one Latin next week though, if the Judge gets through, he may have to treat the Argentine Tango as a Latin.

I see, thank you. If Oti gets to choose her ballroom ( think she has waltz left as well ?) I would go for the AS, think will be better for them than waltz, which can be tricky. No point taking a gamble at this point.

I consider the AT just to be one of the extra dances and not ballroom or latin - many moons ago AT was always considered a latin dance anyway.

With the latin dances left to Louise, Danny or Ore being either samb or salsa really hope Ore opts to AT and QS if he is back rather than samba - as if Louise is back Kevin will always go samba and not salsa imo

Re my comments on Danny (thanks for your reply Jeniffer) yes was just voicing my thoughts on this thread (have not posted it out there) won't get into it on this threads there is enough of Cliftons vs others out there

It never ceases to amaze me how many threads there are about the Cliftons, never any that are complimentary either. They are just highly professional dancers on the show, doing what they are paid to do. I get that some prefer a particular partnership to another, of prefer a dance to another, but as for the rest of it....some obviously have too much time on their hands.

Judge Rinder has the Argentine Tango as a 'floater' as well if he's back. He'd have to use it as he has no 'proper' Latin option left.

As someone who knows way more about musical theatre and commercial than I do Ballroom or Latin, I often pop in here to read (and learn) about the routines on SCD.

As a musicals extravaganza last nights show was ok, but even my untrained eye could see the lack of the actual subject in most routines.

Long may this thread continue to post factual comments that lack bias, I for one thank you all!

Thank you Fairytootoo. I am not a lover of musicals week, but seriously ......was Willy Wonka et al, the very best musicals they could come up with ?? Dreadful.

In the context of a light entertainment talent contest but their 'thought' was perhaps more apt, however, the point still stands. I did state it wasn't her best choreographed routine, she seems pretty self-critical so I'd imagine she'll be desperate to put things right. Oti did luck out this series partnering Danny but I'm sure he'd say he's pleased as Punch to be working with her too. Their quickstep was excellent and one of the series highlights and his VW for his first ballroom effort was a solid attempt. There's plenty of room for improvement re his ballroom, undoubtedly. It's all about technique now and a waltz or AS offers the opportunity to produce something special while demonstrating good technique.

I have not seen Dannys VW so cannot comment on that, but I did enjoy the QS I must admit. It was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but he did well. Personally I would avoid Waltz, it is not easy to dance well and I would go for an Foxtrot based AS, so he can carry over skills from the Foxtrot and build on them. He needs to add some smoothness to his dancing, some finesse that is lacking. He puts in too much energy in the wrong way - he is not dancing in a West End show - granted a ballroom dancer will be very powerful and put in plenty of energy but it is done in the right way, in a controlled way. He can't afford to get it wrong next week. We need to see Danny in his best light. He will suit as AS, keeping it smooth, dancing side by side with Oti, a la Fred and Ginger, making some terrific lines and shapes. I hope Oti goes down this route.

Yet interestingly enough I have been reading the comments of the ballroom dancers on here, in relation to Danny's ballrom tango (BT). I am struck by some similarities with Argentine tango (AT).

It seems the critique of Danny's BT is to do with the way he formed his steps. The comments have been about using the standing leg to create the energy. If I am interpreting it right the step in BT and AT are formed in much the same way even though the posture and styling differ.

In AT a single step comprises three distinct elements.
1. - You push forwards (or backwards, sideways) from the standing leg; effectively maintaining this as your axis point.
2 - I'll come back to the second element because it may be a point of difference.
3 - Only when you reach the final point in the step do you transfer your weight to the unweighted foot to create a new axis point. (In other words there is no point where your weight is supported on both feet. Its one then the other, one leg is always completely unweighted.

The 2 above is called the brush point or collect. As the moving leg passes the standing leg, the ankles should almost brush one another. The way I describe it to students is to imagine tiny magents in your ankle bones which try to catch as you brush them together. You need to increase the energy slightly to prevent them from sticking together. So the first element of the step is slow, until you reach the brush point. Then at and beyond the brush point the energy increases and you push forward with an energy surge to compelete the step. This is what I am always looking for, and seldom finding , in Strictly ATs.

On top of that there is stuff about how the foot interacts with the floor and whether you use the outer or inner part of the ball of the foot to step on first. That would be the icing on the cake. But in SCD terms its a bit academic as we don't get any cake to ice.

Uni one yeah, in Manchester I forget the proper name of it!

Congratulations on your fantastic result. I never danced on the uni circuit but I know a lot of people who currently do and it's a tough one to get back in!

And from what I know from those guys, there's so much enthusiasm for dance and trying new things. You might be able to pick up a salsa partner there as the people I know are so up for trying new things and have great levels of enthusiasm and commitment.

I also have a question about judges critique of Ore. Craig said Ore did not "close his feet" when he was meant to during the foxtrot. As I a) Do not trust Craig as far as I can throw him when it comes to ballroom dance and b) Only dance as a follower - can any of you enlighten me as to which steps in foxtrot require closing your feet?

I can think of steps where I "brush" but it's not a close like in... pretty much any of the other ballroom dances.

edit: also, just me, or was Danny wearing weird shoes for his tango? Again, as a follower I'm more concerned about my own shoes but the heels look odd on them. More like a latin shoe.

Yes there are a lot of similarities. What you say regarding weight transfer is also true for ballroom tango walks. There is also a delay so that although the body is continually moving, each foot/leg movement is not made until the very last possible moment and is executed as sharply as possible.

We have something called tracking which is similar to brushing (which means something else in ballroom) in that the stepping foot comes under and past the standing foot. The ankles don't necessarily meet because of the alignment of the feet.

I.e In tango I might be in promenade, moving line of dance, but my feet will be pointing diagonally centre. (The first is known as direction and the second as alignment.) When walking in closed hold the ankles should be closer to meeting but not quite because of the way the body is rotated (the body is rotated to a different amount to the feet so that he lady's left side is slightly back and the man's right side slightly forward.

Dannys shoes are a real bugbear of mine. In Tango you place the feet, you don't roll through, but in the other dances, Foxtrot for example, how on earth can we roll through the feet wearing Cuban heels.....they look awful and when the footwork is not very good, it just highlights the fact even more.

With regards to Ore's Foxtrot, the only area that I can think where he would have to close his feet would be a chasse. I'd have to go back and look at the routine, but of course we don't get to see everything, but a chasse would be my guess.
I can't recall exactly what he had in the routine, but variations on chasse, ie tipple or tipsy would require, not exactly closing of feet, but the feet would need to touch in the action, just in the same way as in waltz.

Just had a look at the routine, and as usual the camera angle is high, but looking at it, it does look like a couple of chasses in there. We cannot see the feet to see if they closed or not, but as you say, Craig knows nothing of technique and this would have been a relatively minor point to mention in the big scheme of things. Still he has to say something.

Thak you for this Ann. Most interesting I will watch their feet for this detail in future. In At the idea at times is that the upper body and lower body shoudl face in different directions. So for example the upper body stays with the line of dance but the feet move across the line of dance - such as in the ocho.

The ankles don't actually meet in AT either but they do pass very close to one another and pause/hesitate for a very split second at that point. I understand it is an important part of the technique for keep the lead and follower in synch with one another. Intellectually I can't unpick that, but do it because I am told it is part of the technique.

The trouble is, most people can't tell the difference. His 'performance' overrides his technique (for evidence of this, you just need to read the show thread). I am not among the informed (if I want to know whether I am right about anything, I have to ask here!), but even I could see his Tango technique was wrong - yet I saw a lot of praise for his performance.

I do really enjoy his dancing - he has great natural movement - but more and more, he has been a bit 'one note' to me - everything is the West End hoofer that he has trained to be and almost nothing is 'ballroom'. Occasionally, I love minimalist, but we're never gonna get that from Doti (Oti is canny enough to know what goes down well with the audience and how to take advantage of what Danny can do - same as Aliona last year showing off Jay's elegance, wonderful lines, and legs at every opportunity - a clever pro will use what they have).

I have seen praise here of Ore's ballroom, and mention of his top line. However, to me he still looks (even apart from his constipated expression) a little hunched, and his shoulders tremendously stiff. I know he has to hold the frame, but it looks to me like he is clenching every muscle to do it, which is unpleasant to watch. Unfair to compare him to a pro, but just to explain what I mean - Kevin has rock solid shoulders (my favourite aspect of his dancing actually), but the line nevertheless looks relaxed and easy. Perhaps some knowledgeable person/people here could say what they think?

Thank you Jennifer. Reassures me that I'm pretty much correct in my assessment of Craig's ballroom knowledge!

It really bothers me when the dancers/celebrities are not in the correct shoes. It seems particularly fashionable with SCD dancers to do barefoot rumbas and I absolutely can't abide them. As soon as they come out with no shoes and the lady in a shapeless white seethrough dress I know it's not really for me, haha.

Ore, for a beginner, doesn't have too bad a topline. It takes a long time for a male to develop a good frame and topline, for many, its a continual work in progress. It certainly is not easy. Kevin of course, has had years to learn and develop his, it is well practised and rehearsed . As a Professional, he makes it look natural and easy.

The frame should not be stiff, nor should the shoulders be. We dance from the back, through the back, using the muscles to keep the arms in place. The shoulders are rolled down and pushed/held down, back picked up towards partner, and arms simply held in place. The whole top whilst "held" in place,is really flexible, it needs to be to accommodate the lady in any outside partners positions for example. Ore also looks slightly odd as he is not stretched as he should be ( would not expect it at this stage), neither is he balanced and dancing more to his left side - common fault with them all of course. Danny in his Foxtrot looked stiff as a board and I applaud the lady professionals to get to the positions to where they should be, as it can't be easy, not helped by incorrect body positioning by their men celebs plus their rigid toplines

It was a somewhat bizarre comment. Since I've been learning lead, I haven't come across places where I need to close feet in foxtrot except in a closed or open impetus where the lead does a heel turn. I don't think Ore did one of those. As you say there is a brush sometimes, most notably in a natural turn after the heel pull. I wasn't sure whether Ore did any natural turns. I don't think he did but if he had Craig could have confused the heel pull, where the feet don't close, with the heel turn, where they do close.

If anything I would have made the opposite comment that Ore needed a bigger stride and needed to deal better with keeping his weight balanced between his feet.

It's a very difficult technique. From what you say, there is clear analogy with ballet where the same principle is true (although the positioning will be different), which is probably why my eye is drawn to that element which he might be doing poorly while I'm still ignorant of what he's doing well!

Do you have an opinion as to what male contestant did it best? Ricky Whittle? Harry Judd? Other?

I have not seen all the other series so cannot give a true opinion, I'm not sure that I saw Ricky Whittle in the show but I do remember Harry Judd. I recall that visually he did have a good topline. The arms must be in the correct place, not too far forward or back....there is a lot more to it than I have written, but you get the idea. There has to be an immense amount of stretch for both man and lady , and maintained throughout the dances, a feeling of shoulders down, but projecting from torso ( breastbone) upwards, outwards and towards partner, and pressure downwards into the floor.

I notice Craig was not asked to discuss his comment on Ore's 'closing of feet' on Len's lens even though he was given Ore to comment on. I wonder..........