I just lump it in the "sh*t the judges say" category, along with armography etc

Armography kills my soul slightly, as does the fixating on 'pigeon toes'.

Well, I guess Darcey and Craig are from ballet backgrounds, where any perceived defect in your physicality is harshly judged.

It's simply not helpful, and unreasonable to expect it to be corrected - especially within the small time frame of Strictly

I must admit, that I too, "fixate" on toes/feet so from a personal viewpoint, I do get that But again, is "armography" really a word that we use ? I have never heard of it outside of Strictly.

I love watching the VW, but know very little about the correct technique (my dance knowledge being limited on ballroom + Latin).
Len tells us often that there's very few actual steps, but what specifics should I be looking for please? (Would like to watch Doti's AS with at least a modicum of an idea about what's correct)

Thanks in advance

I don't think there's anything wrong being picky about things that could be easily corrected, but seem to be overlooked by a pro/celeb.

This is very true Nina, we all know how hard it is to break habits anyway, especially something like pidgeon toes, that they have had all their life. They have so much to contend with during the weeks training,learning new dances, new routines, basic technique etc, never mind trying to add in the performance factor, its impossible to correct everything in such a short time.

Trouble is, there is so much to work on, they probably don't have enough time to get everything to an acceptable standard. I do like the way the both Kevin and Jo in particular have obviously spent a great deal of time with their partners, working on the technical aspects and footwork. It really shows.

Though I can understand it from the perspective of an expert though. If you see the feet in that position, it must be very jarring when the rest of the technique looks ok.

I just agree with DJ that it's annoying when the judges seem to fixate on that one thing, that isn't really going to change

I can see both sides - and funnily enough, correct ballet footwork can be detrimental to B/L learning (I got many expletives thrown at me for being on my toes too much!). But pigeon toes is something you're born with - and if you're doing the footwork correctly, why should it matter if your toes rotate outward slightly? (My granda was a big ballroom/latin man in his heyday, and it's one of his sore points when it comes to Strictly (which he refers to as 'Showdancing'. )

I totally understand! (I was fixated with Caroline's feet - which were BEAUT). I've never heard 'armography' anywhere outside of Strictly, either. (My other bugbear on Strictly is not finishing lines. Finish your lines please, celebs!)

I doubt that Doti's dance will be too much like an proper VW as its an VW inspired AS. There will be some VW in there but they will be breaking out of hold, and there will be lifts. None of this is allowed in VW competitively, you dance in full hold with no lifts.

There are few variations and because of this, it is a very technical dance. In a real life competition, this dance will collect a fifth of the marks, so if you dance it well, you can amass marks over those that don't practice it, as many don't so much.

The variations are natural and reverse turns, forward and backward change steps,
fleckerl reverses and natural turns. Most couples will also dance a contra check from reverse turns in fleckerl to naturals.

The footwork is very precise but not as far as Strictly goes.

Without getting too much into the technical side I would look for a strong but lilting linear swing down the room, in natural turns, smoothness, no "skipping" a slightly more flatter action than, say. waltz as there is no intended rise and fall, beautiful shaping, closing action of feet where intended/needed. I also like to see good use of the standing leg, so driving from the standing leg, coming through on a heel is important.

I hope that Oti has put a fair bit of VW into this, I am sure this will be a great routine if Danny can master the technique. I have to say that the early training looked a bit rough. Still they have a little time to work on it.

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker here but finally joined up! Have loved reading this thread over the past few weeks and getting technical insight into the dances from experts! I love learning new things so it's great to get some proper insight into dance. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I've always wanted to know the following and would appreciate some insight!

-Who would you consider to be the 'best' pro in terms of their own dance ability? My mum and I always remark how Joanne seems to be the best female dancer by a countrymile. I've heard people say that Janette and even Karen are some of the weaker pros but was wondering what you guys throught. Also, on the men's side?

-How do you think the pros go about in choreographing their routines? Do they listen to the music first and then think about the steps? Do they look at what their celebrity is good at and then work around that? I mean I imagine with someone like Claudia, her partner must want to tailor routines to her gymnastic strengths e.g. Balance, lines etc.

-This is something that my mum and I have always wondered...what does it mean to be 'in time' to the music? I don't really listen to music and don't really understand what this means and also when you hear them counting e.g. One, two, three...what are they counting? Does each number represent a step or movement?

Thanks for any replies!!

As far as very very basic stuff goes - I'd say an important thing to watch out for for VW is to check that the celebs feet close up on the natural turns (when they go clockwise) and close up then cross alternately on the reverse turn (you guessed it - anti clockwise!) If you go back and watch, for example, Jay and Aliona's VW you start to notice how even the very talented celebs can have quite sloppy feet.

Just because a celeb does this, it doesn't mean they have mastered the VW as there are some other steps plus all the other details to strive for in ballroom dance - but for someone who doesn't dance ballroom, it's quite an easy detail to spot.

Yes, I do agree Ellie, but they all do this,ie mostly have sloppy feet ( and legs action) As much as i would love them to apply correct footwork in VW - and its not just the closing and crossing actions, some steps you must leave the heel up etc - it is so advanced, i do not expect them to do this. It is a difficult dance for a dancer to dance well, never mind a non dancer, so I personally just look for the basics and a nice smooth, action with swing.
And for the lady, not to lose her head position, particularly in reverses.

Well, that's partially a side-effect of the couples dancing more and more out of hold. As soon as a couple is not in a standard ballroom hold, Darcey, Craig and Bruno's eyes are going to be drawn instantly to lines; finishing with hands and feet, and formation of beautiful shapes and use of free hand/legs. They can't help it - it's a result of their backgrounds which all have their roots in ballet (despite some having done different things later). Len's comments in those cases will give them just as much displeasure as theirs might give to him.

If you come from ballet background, J's legs, feet and arms would give you all sorts of pleasure - you couldn't help it, particularly as it's so rare in the male celebs, most especially the feet. It's actually even more noticeable with a man, because females have part of the shaping done for them already by their high-heeled shoes. That is not the same thing as dancing the correct ballroom steps in the correct way.

They will also automatically look at the shapes formed when the dance 'pauses' (I don't know the name for it, but one of those glamorous moments where a couple just holds it teetering on the brink, with often the female dipping quite deeply), as that is something they are also used to.

Darcey is not the one who created the term "double bounce", it was Craig. As is the term armography.

Brendan and James used to be the worst at calling out the judges on their incorrect advice, but they eventually learned to hold their tongues. Aliona too - her comments on ITT which got her fired first time around!

I'm the same on most of the other dances since they often have a lot of different steps to remember but to me, if the pro isn't teaching them the very very basic VW footwork correctly then they're failing their celeb. Such a large part of the routine is spent (or should I say, SHOULD be spent) doing naturals and reverses, they should be getting the basic pattern of them correct in my opinion.

edit: I guess my standards are to at least feel like the celeb knows what they SHOULD be doing when I watch them. I definitely got the feeling when I watched back Jay's just now that he didn't know the difference between a natural and reverse turn. Or he vaguely knew that his feet were meant to cross at some point but he wasn't sure when. Some of the other celebs will do sloppy crosses or have an inch or so between their closed feet - but at least they have an idea of what they're meant to be doing. It's just what happens when you greenhouse a dance for four days rather than having time to practice and perfect.

Difficult to answer who is the best pro dancer as they tend to come from different fields. Janette, for example, is brilliant at salsa as that is what she specialised in, but her ballroom and Latin are much weaker. Brendan specialised in Latin, but since joining Strictly in series 1, he has worked so hard on the ballroom, until he is equally good in both styles. Joanne is a good all-rounder, though not as good as her brother (IMO). And so on......

Some - if not all - the pros will have their routines prepared before the series starts. They will then adapt them to suit their celebs ability, strengths and weaknesses, and the music they are given, something they are capable of doing very quickly.

Timing : every piece of music is made up of 'bars', which in turn are made up of so many counts. If you listen carefully to a piece of waltz music you will hear the beats go 1-2-3 1-2-3 etc, which means there are 3 beats to a bar. So when dancing a waltz the steps are taken to those beats. If a dancer takes their first step on beat 2, they will be out of time with the music.

Other dances - foxtrot, quickstep, tango all dance to music that has 4 beats to each bar, and are usually called SLOW (1 step to 1 beat) QUICK-QUICK (2 steps to 1 beat).

Latin can be different. Cha cha and rumba, for example, are all danced to music that has 4 beats to the bar, but is complicated because the dancer must not take a step on the 1st beat, but start on the 2nd.

I'm not sure if any of that helps; maybe as clear as mud!!!!

I do agree with you, but if it were only that simple !.

I am sure each Pro is fully aware of what needs to be taught but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

To us dancers, learning the precise footwork seems fairly simple enough, but I can recall when i first learned to dance the VW, it took me ages to learn it properly. Not just the footwork, very specific and different for most steps, but the correct alignment of feet and body, the powerful swing and rotation, and not allowing all of this to affect your poise, posture and to keep contact. It really isn't easy. We have to remember that the celebs are not putting together groups of steps, that are familiar to us, they are having to learn it step by step for the entire routine.

Very good clear explanation kaycee, but also to add that we also have syncopated timing. So In Waltz, we would be dancing 1 & 2 & 3 &.........or 1,2 & 3 or 1 & 2,3 or Q & Q &.in Quickstep etc. Think of them as half beats. It makes the dance and choreography much more exciting to both dance and watch. A good example of this is the step hop scatter chasses in QS, where the couples are moving at great speed down the sides of the floor. Some do slow side closes, but the faster scatter chasses with the syncopated timing are best. Nicely grounded with feet using the floor for power and speed.....one of my favourite steps as they are fast !

Many thanks Jennifer, the out of hold stuff I'm better able to appreciate, this gives me an idea of what to look for when they're in hold

Wow that's really interesting! Thanks very much for that really detailed explanation.

So do dancers ever get to a stage where they don't 'count' the beats and are so intuned to the music that they just do it without thinking? I always wonder how the celebs who are novices manage to remember a whole routine, let alone add in performance aspects as well?

Also, how do the pros not 'outdance' their celeb? I mean it must be hard not to dance to their full ability as they have been so used to doing...

Another thing is...what is a 'heel lead'? From watching Strictly it seems that all Latin dances e.g. Rumba, Cha-Cha should not have them at all? Is it basically that you dance on the balls of your feet?

Sorry for all these questions and thanks for replying!!!

Absolutely, it becomes natural and instinctive.

You do dance heel leads in Paso Doble, but it is essentially a ballroom technique.

You will dance a heel lead when dancing forward as man or lady, if and when you have lowered from the bar before. So if you have lowered correctly, it is simple to apply the correct footwork to come forward on a heel. Sometimes, depending on the steps, you are on toes but from a lowered position, it will be heels.

I'm talking about the swing dances not tango here. Tango is danced in a lowered stance, always into your legs, so these steps in a forward action will be heels.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that he did know - I saw him getting it right in training. He just forgot his footwork on the night - remember his comment afterwards about technical requirements - "I am not a robot". Like everyone, he was under a lot of pressure that week as they had to do two dances, but both he and Georgia lost rehearsal time because of personal reasons.

It must be very difficult for the celebs - they don't really learn proper technique. They learn a routine. They probably wouldn't be able to apply the technique outside of that routine. I always think Ian must have trained Zoe very well (although that was back in the day when they actually danced the dance without many frills), because in the little ITT demos she's often able to follow the man even when he goes 'off script'. Not brilliantly, but still...

ETA: what a wonderful privilege though. They actually get PAID to have the full time personal attention of a pro for several months. If you were to pay for that kind of training yourself, what would it all add up to?