A small fortune and I can speak from experience.

Of course you are quite right. I did start to say something about syncopated timing, but it began to sound a bit complicated as I was trying to answer someone who admits to not listening to music,etc., so thought I'd keep it as simple as possible.

You're explanation was very helpful- thank-you?

So does that mean that the dances that start on the second beat are harder to learn? People always say that the rumba is a really hard dance but surely as it's really slow that would make it easier, even from the point of view that there are less ' movements' I.e steps in the routine? I was watching ITT yesterday and they showed footage of Claudia doing the rumba and she seemed to be pretty good at it (from my untrained eye of course!!!) and she's had no dance training...

OMG... I think that was AJ and Claudia doing on their training footage... if they perfect it... it gonna be amazing.

Yes, perhaps I should not have added to your comment, when explaining, sometimes keeping it simple is best

Yes it was, it didn't look very good but as the footage was early this week, they have every chance with time to improve.
There should be a lot more shaping ( AJ should instigate this) and Claudia will need to ensure her head is in the right place to assist the movement. The action looked very stilted, she looked as though she was jumping along on high legs, her weight was in the wrong place. She needs to be into her knees more and emphasise the chasse action ( feet: side, close side) . This will be fast, as its Q&Q&Q&.
She was just learning the steps though, I appreciate that.

First of all, do not apologise for asking questions. Unless Jennifer, who initially started this wonderful thread, thinks otherwise, I think it is great when someone takes enough interest to really want to know things.

Yes, definitely dancers get to the stage when they no longer have to count the music, they simply 'feel' it so it becomes instinctive to know what is a slow step, what is a quick. While the novice celebs might look as if they have a lot to remember with a whole routine - that routine is only 90 seconds long, with, more often or not, a lot of repetition of steps; they are also dancing with a professional who will always guide them, and the rest gets down to practice practice practice.........

Most of the professional dancers have taught (outside Strictly) and therefore been used to devising routines that are far below anything they would dance themselves. But before worrying about routines they will also have taught raw beginners how to start from the very beginning.

No, although there are no heel leads in Latin, that doesn't mean you don't use the heel. In simplified terms - you take a step forward on the toe (or ball of the foot) and then lower onto the heel, or if taking a step backwards - the same principle, toe, ball, then lower the heel. It's using the correct footwork that creates the hip movement. Paso Doble is the exception. Sometimes known as the marching dance, it is more like a normal walking step.

Thanks so much! I love learning about new things so being able to ask experts questions is great, they should do this more on Strictly!

This might have been asked before so apologies but when do dancers start practicing routines in their dance shoes? I ask because sometimes from the training footage, it seems that sometimes both the pro and the celeb or sometimes not just the celeb (I think) are dancing in trainers and other times in proper shoes.

Is it better to learn the routine in trainers and then perfect it in shoes? I never wear heels at all so I imagine I would do much better dancing in trainers but then maybe would find it harder to switch than if I had just started in heels from the outset?

Not to weigh in - but, when I was learning, you were always to practice in your shoes, regardless! For both males and females - you need to get used to creating the correct footwork in the appropriate footwear.

As DJMonty has said, as you learn you should always wear your proper dance shoes. Perhaps for Strictly, they wear trainers when they are stepping through the steps, ie learning the routine, but even then, I would always recommend wearing the dance shoes as it will feel different from wearing trainers of course. As an experienced dancer, I often wear ( dance) trainers for dance practice - when we practice alone -, but it doesn't affect me as I can then transfer to shoes quite happily.

It is at this stage when you feel the music that you start to express the character of the
dance
Now the potential shows in the couple who dance and express for each other

And finnaly arrives the dance personality of the individual couples

Well said Pabird, I'm in full agreement.

Last question (at least for now haha) is about making errors in the routine.

How do dancers recover from going wrong in a routine, and how does it affect what their partner does? Would their partner try to help them out e.g prompt them as to the next step etc.

Watching this season of Strictly the two examples I can think or are Danny's foxtrot and Claudia's jive where both went wrong. I remember Danny remarked how Oti sort of 'pulled him into position' but watching Claudia's routine back again, it seems that AJ then stopped what he was supposed to be doing as well and sort of bounced a few times as well before they picked it up again. Is that because the jive is faster or he didn't know how to help her out? Not doubting the pros at all btw just wondering what people thought.

I think there are two questions here, 1) in the instance of experienced dancers and 2) in the instance of Strictly celebs.

From a Ballroom point of view, it would be rare, as lady, that I would go wrong in a routine. As experienced dancers, we don't have a set routine as such - when we get to a venue ( different ones each week, different sized floors) we would discuss what choreo would ideally work well for the size of floor. A large floor like the Blackpool Wintergardens would take far more choreo to cover the floor than anywhere else, so you need many other variations that you can add into your choreo or chop and change, from what you might dance at a smaller venue.

As said, we would have an "ideal" routine in our minds, but when you get on the comp floor, you may not have the space or other couples come in your way so the man (lead) has to change the choreo in an instant. The lady will have to react and simply follow. Experienced dancers can do this provided the man leads the lady well through his body positioning. I can recall dancing in the national championships one year, in one of the earlier rounds, there were 26 couples on the floor. It was so packed, in our Waltz, we did not dance one step of our normal routine, my partner had to improvise on the spot and I had to follow, which I did quite easily due to my good partners leading. This is quite a skill and is practised quite regularly - to get out of trouble - we call this floorcraft.

In the case of the Strictly dancers, they do not have this luxury as the men do not know how to lead, they do not have a variety of variations and steps to fall back on if they forget their routine. As they only learn steps to music, it must be terrifying for a brief moment, when on live TV, they don't know what comes next.....

In the case of Danny, I saw when he forgot,the routine, he forgot the steps and he did not dance in the right alignment in his Foxtrot. At this point he should have been dancing towards the corner - the correct alignment for the variation he was dancing ( Feather finish into 3 step) hence Oti pulling him back on course. She could only hope that it rejigged his memory so he could remember where he was and what he was supposed to be doing. I expect the Pro's talk to their celebs when they are dancing anyway, if needs be, to give them a clue where they are in the routine.

It is easier for the Strictly ladies mostly, as the Pro Ballroom dancers will not let them go wrong provided they are in hold. The pro's will be able to guide ( or steer !) their celebs into position if they forget.

When someone goes wrong a professional might do different things depending on where and how the person went wrong, how recoverable the error is and how experienced their partner is. They may try to lead or backlead their partner by applying extra pressure through the hands say and slight exaggeration of body change. This works if their partner appears to have blanked for a second or if they are dancing the right step but wrongly. They may just go along with what their partner is doing if their partner is still dancing something that is recognisable and try and pick up the routine at the next phrase. They may stop and collect if their partner looks completely lost and then pick up from the next phrase of music. This may even mean speaking to their partner. None of these are necessarily right or wrong. It depends on the circumstances.

In competitions, even high level dancers have blocks of routines that they can put together. So if you find yourself in a corner or needing to make a turn you may have a block that starts with a natural turn or spin turn so that you can change direction. I think following a completely improvised routine and keeping a high standard of presentation would be difficult unless you are very experienced like Jennifer and know your partner very well. Where people know their partners well, they tend to know what sequences that person likes to dance and so it is a bit more predictable than steps being completely plucked out of the air for the lady to follow. You will see this if you study older married dancers at socials. They know each other well and are improvising but there is often various preferred sequence of steps the lead tends to repeat. (Steps in ballroom and latin have limited possible follows anyway because you have to be in the right position for the next step and you learn these when you do your professional exams.)

Just to add, sometimes following your partner through improvised steps can be unavoidable e.g. In the situations outlined above by Jennifer where the dance floor is crowded. However if they've just forgotten your routine and are just going off piste, they can make you look really rubbish, because when following an unexpected set of improvised steps something will probably give in the way of presentation.. I know a highish level dancer who that happened to when they took on a new partner. They were not amused.

Of course it will happen with the celebs. I think Ed did it a few times, but Katya went along with it!

All good points Ann, but from my own perspective, when I dance, I never think routine. I never try and anticipate what my partner is going to do. There is always an action and a reaction. His job is to lead us into some space to dance, show me off and my job is to do just that and follow. I do that by ensuring that whilst I am toned and have good posture etc, I continue to maintain the areas of connection and just relax. Once I start "thinking", especially if I anticipate what he is doing, I will go wrong. If he leads me correctly, through the connection, body positioning and dancing in the correct alignments, I will follow very easily.

Of course, there are groups that are favoured, and there are several exits to any one variation, but some will be favoured. Waltz fallaway for example, it would be very natural for my partner to lead me into this and normally I would expect a double reverse spin afterwards as it flows so well, but unless I feel the lead into the heel turn, I don't do it.

This is the great thing about dance experience, that you can do this and improvise,but I do remember many years of just dancing a routine, and getting "stuck" if couples come in your way. the golden rule is to just keep dancing and not to stop This is a skill though that will only come with loads of practice. Turning figures will always be the most challenging to practice, because most men beginners think that the turn comes from the topline, they will turn one way and leave the other side open. They need to understand that it will come from the rotation of the hips and thighs first. The rotation through the lower body has to come before the movement. I too, had to endure a long time of my partner, many years ago, trying to turn ME....oh dear, it took quite a while and lots of practice to put this in place.

I was watching AJ's professional competition, in the middle of their dance they bumped to the other couple... do the judges deduct points if this happen? The floor was bit crowded tho.

I don't believe that AJ and Chloe have competed at Professional level yet, so I assume you would have seen them in an Amateur or Youth competition.

Yes, bumps do happen in both Latin and Ballroom . Firstly it may be an incident that is not noticed by the judges as you say the floor was crowded. Provided they get straight back into their dancing, it may have gone unnoticed. In competitions, you don't have marks awarded or deducted, in the early rounds of a competition, they will select, say 24 couples out of 48 for the quarter finals. The couple will either get back to the next round or they won't. With the final, each judge will ( undisclosed to anyone else ) place each couple in order, 1-6 or 1-7 if a 7 couple final. So competitors are not given scores like on strictly.

If it is just one of those things, and the couple get back into their dancing straight away, I don't feel it makes a difference, however, if the couple or couples concerned make a habit of it, they will be deemed to have poor floorcraft and that, I feel, could go against them. In Ballroom if you are bumped into, the golden rule is to keep your topline, just because you stand still, will not go against you, just stand in a beautiful line until you can get going again...if you have stopped. Keep those elbows out and hold your ground!

Hehe they all look like professionals to me... yeah AJ was bit rattled for a second then they continue dancing straight away...

Thank you.

I guess approaches must vary and different things work for different people. I was quoting the approach used by three of my teachers, one a successful amateur competitor and the other two competent professional ex competitors. They still had subroutines that they could put together in any order since this allowed them to refine the presentation, but obviously had to be adaptable to floor conditions which might mean an element of improvisation. I don't think you are saying much different but maybe you improvise a bit more as a couple than some other couples. I know that adjudicators have a real issue with couples who plough relentlessly through their routines and show no respect for other couples on the floor. I also absolutely agree that no follower should be thinking routine when they actually perform, even if they are doing a fixed routine. I also agree it is difficult to keep dancing when things go wrong and it is probably my greatest problem. I think the issue here is fear: that you will just end up as a heap on the floor if you are not reading your partner well, although in reality just stopping can achieve that result!

I fully agree with you Ann, and we are indeed saying the same thing. In one of my earlier posts I made reference to the fact that we all have an "ideal" routine, and preferred groups, but I was answering another post, in the main, that questioned what happens when someone forgets a routine.I then digressed to say that basically if you are experienced , it doesn't matter.... Yes in an ideal world you can dance what is planned, but it isn't always the case. We always used to get to a venue early - if we had not been there before - to visually "size" it up and plan what choreo would be best. However with regards to Blackpool , we know that its about 2 and a half times the length of our practice hall so we can plan with confidence in advance. I have no time for couples that deliberately plough into people just to show that they can dance their routine, it smacks of bad manners and can be dangerous causing injury.

This will improve with practice and also having confidence in your partners ability to lead you out of trouble, or at least protect you if you are bashed. The number of times I have been hit in the head by flying elbows ...it can be a dangerous world out there ....but, aside from one time when I did almost collapse on the floor - the room went black -, I stand my ground and refuse to give up my space. I am feisty and I know this sounds awful, but I will stand my ground and if someone wants to try and take my space, let them try and see where it gets them. All this whilst smiling of course This doesn't actually happen too much in reality.

My ballroom partner and I got plowed into several times by the same couple at our last competition. We sadly exited that round, in the semi final, where it kept happening and they made the final. They were ranked 6th though, even though they were probably the strongest dancers on the floor.

Not having seen the comp, I may be doing them a disservice, but you do find that some couples may be intimidating you, and using tactics to stop you dancing or even block you in a fixed position, or corner. Try and learn from this and practice keeping out of trouble.
When we first started out, we found others doing this to us, and better dancers too...those that should known better. However, one of Englands top couples at the time tried to "take us out" and I'm afraid I got my elbows in, ( by that I mean stood my ground and stayed in place) and he never did it again. He did wink at me on the floor afterwards, so I know that this was his intention, to stop us dancing.....