Sorry not to keep up, but what does slip mean?

I'll do my best to describe, but Bendymixer and kayee will be able to quote from technique books. But in this instance, the man will be backing LOD ( Line of Dance) and will be on his left foot, stretched up and to his left within the frame. With his right leg, which at this point will be in front of him having completed the fallaway, he pulls this foot through, foot in good contact with the floor almost like rubbing out a chalk line on the floor...he will pull this foot stongly through, and under body, ready to pivot. Hence the slip, is "slipping the foot".

Explanation totally understandable. Thank you for explaining.

You do a great job at explaining jenniferF

Thanks! I think the designs have changed completely from the sound of it, which isn't hugely surprising to be fair considering all the badges are from 60s/ 70s. All the medal-things and the statuette have my mum's name on (but no one else's, which is why I think they're more likely to be exam awards than competition medals) and the date but other than that, I'm getting bronze/ silver/ gold from the colours of the medals. I've just got them out to check and it seems she was flipping between ISTD and IDMA (which later merged with IDTA) so I think she's got a complete set of bronze/ silver/ gold in both ISTD and IDMA in ballroom... something... there's nothing marking that it's for a single dance as opposed to overall ballroom but I don't know how I'd tell! All the IDMA medals have a matching pin badge as well, though the final gold IDMA appears to have two badges with it, one with a red flash (that matches the medal) and the other green flash that doesn't match anything. I'm not sure if the green one actually belongs with a different medal but none of the medals have green on them. The Latin America badges are clearer because she flipped less between exam boards (1 bronze for ISTD, then the full set in IDMA/ IDTA) but they only say "Latin American," nothing about a single dance. Then there's the statuette, which just says "International Award" on it (plus her name and the date) - I'm assuming it's ballroom because the costumes look more ballroom-ish and from the date, it looks as though it follows the medals but I'm just guessing at this point... Eh, it's not important, I'm just curious!


That was always my guess! Sorry by the way if it sounded like I was criticising the judges because I wasn't. It's just that so often on here, especially towards the end of the series, we end up discussing the judges' marks in ways that end up as "How could that mark be given when we saw such and such a technical thing happening/ not happening." I thought it interesting to note that judging does depend on an overview and one mistake, however important or however silly, doesn't mean that dance was a write off. It's IVDC I was talking about actually, and being beginners both of us thought we'd messed everything up by forgetting something so obvious. It's the same sort of thing on Strictly sometimes - we all know, for example, to look for the swivel in Charleston so it's very easy to get caught up in that one thing we know to look for and assume the judges' scores should be based solely on that, when of course they won't ever be.

Sorry, coming a bit more back to the current topic of conversation, a friend of mine on facebook posted an interesting link earlier: http://danceclasschallenge.wordpress...ocial-dancing/

Any thoughts? The "Don’t be too rough" point made me smile because I've hardly ever heard it articulated (certainly nowhere near as much as "Make sure you don't smell!") but it's true, as the follower you can end up completely at the mercy of someone who thinks it necessary to throw you around the dance floor and it can take a minute or so to adjust enough to have any hope of countering it.

Thank you very much that is a compliment indeed. It is difficult to describe in words, so much easier to demonstrate.

I'm afraid I can't comment about Salsa as I have only had minimal experience but years ago I did dance a lot of latin, and sadly a lot of (inexperienced) men think the lead, through the handshake hold connection is actually pushing and pulling the lady into place. Of course, the lead for ballroom is through the centre as you have a right side to right side connection.

Franglemand thanks for that link, really interesting article and I liked the one aimed at follows too!

To return to a slightly earlier point:


This and Henry's post made me laugh because I'm so exactly the opposite! I can pick up routines and remember them fairly quickly (due to years of early training in disciplines where that was appropriate). Learning to follow is a whole new ball game for me - I find it a real challenge, but I'm enjoying it a lot. Quite jealous of you guys who find it more natural

It's so interesting how all the different dance forms overlap, or not - a lot of that salsa article was definitely appropriate to swing dancing too...

Good link on salsa etiquette. I was a chucker for a few weeks when I started AT. Now I delight in just using my finger tips for the same or better effect.

Firstly, and somewhat belatedly, thanks to Jennifer for setting up this thread. I used to love reading and learning from the old Dance Teachers thread, and hope this one keeps going.

I should say I am not a Dance Teacher, but an enthusiastic social dancer who has been having lessons for about 9 years. So I won’t be contributing much expertise, just random observations. Hope that is OK.

I did enjoy the earlier discussion on pivot turns (sorry to drag you back). In our group lessons our teacher is reticent to reach them, although we have hinted in the past. I think he is worried at the carnage that might ensue as we ricochet up and down the hall. We do see them being used occasionally socially; in fact at one of our regular socials there is a particular couple that do little else than pivot up and down the floor. Mr & Mrs Pivot, we call them. I assume you all have names for people you see; I dread to think what I may be called: Mr Dreadful Posture, or Señor Shoulders Over Toes, or some such. Thankfully I’ve never seen a Mr Knee Slide outside of the telly.

But anyway, thanks for the tips on how to execute the pivot turns, since they are not in my Guy Howard Technique books. One question though, if you precede with 1-3 of a natural turn, presumably the first pivot has the lady coming forward and providing the initial impetus? If so, how do I lead that?

Just another thought on the split between competition and social dancers. I think that there is a third type, and it is actually a fairly significant number - those for whom the enjoyment is in learning the dances and technique, but then neither compete, do medals nor dance socially, apart from maybe a single annual Ball. Many of our class over the years have been content to stop there. Certainly for us, my wife and I really had to push ourselves well clear of our comfort zone to dance socially. The skills required to change angles and steer around the floor whilst varying the steps are hard to teach in isolation, and seem best achieved by trial and error. Lots of error.

I should have said that Latin dances are not in hold for a lot of the time.

If you look on youtube at competitive dancers you will see what I mean. Dancers may be facing each other, or in shadow position, or maybe the lady is in front of the man. In rumba especially, the dancers are often start a good few steps away from each other with a "preparation group of steps" and the only indication the lady has that the man is about to start is by concentrating on his eyes!

Being apart can of course lead to problems on a crowded floor! We were at one competition where, by coincidence everyone was wearing black. The floor was very crowded in the first round. I did a double spin, put my arms up and dropped for my partner to catch me, only to find I had the wrong partner! Good job dancers all get to know each other - and of course hugely entertaining for the audience!

Here's how we teach people to pick up the ability to follow: dance ballroom as a couple but with no hold except correct body contact. Don't dance a routine just freestyle. After a while it can become quite natural.

In Latin there's another trick - the lady is blindfolded (yes honestly!) and her partner has to lead her into various steps - again not a learned routine - by taking no steps himself and just using body position.

If the 'leader' partner is not too experienced, try both these exercises first with a teacher. It really works and it is good fun as well.

Blindfold, that reminds me of the burn the floor routine we saw, although this was choreographed, this is it on youtube, you may recognise some of the dancers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4j9-2AYWhQ

[QUOTE=AlexR!;75296880 One question though, if you precede with 1-3 of a natural turn, presumably the first pivot has the lady coming forward and providing the initial impetus? If so, how do I lead that?

I'll do my best !! Difficult putting it in writing, easier to demonstrate....
From the 3 steps of a natural, you will have ended with hopefully a lovely sway to your left, keep weight forward taking care to keep arms forward ( many men are back weighted here and take their arms back). Knees slightly flexed, feet together.At the end of 3, lose the sway, you need to lower strongly into your right knee, drop your left foot back with your weight still on R. CBM shape. This alone with invite the lady to come forward past you. The lady is coming forward so it is her power step that will start the pivot. Hope this helps

I have tried various techniques with AT beginners. Usually the problem to overcome is to get the guy to use his chest almost like a rudder to 'steer' the lady. Their instinct of course is to use the force of their biceps to force her into the direction they want her to go. Not only does this feel really unpleasant it also looks wrong and they soon forget to maintain the 'leaning-in' to form an A frame position. The result makes a point but tends to be rather chaotic.

We use various props, cushions, large balloons if we can get them or cardboard boxes and challenge the students to keep the item in place between their upper torsos while walking without using their hands. Often in class I will make the guy put his hands behind his back and place my hands on his shoulders so he has to lead with his body not his arms.

IVDC is the IVDA Championship - IVDA is the association of universities that runs it so the competition itself tends to get referred to as IVDC. Although I didn't do the judging, I was responsible for hiring the judges and had to make quite a lot of decisions during the day about how many couples to recall to the next round, how many heats to have and what to do about tied votes from the judges!

Although in principle it is the same, judging in Strictly is very different. At IVDC, for example, I think for some of the events I started out with about 5 heats of 20 odd couples in each heat - that is a very different judging prospect to having 1 couple on the dance floor. In Strictly the judges can watch the whole routine in detail (and can see everything rather than just what the TV cameras let us see). If you have got 20 couples on the floor you can't do that, you have to make judgements based on short and repeated periods of observation. It is quite possible that one couple might make a horrendous mistake but if none of the judges happen to be looking in their direction at that moment they might still get voted through to the next round. You can also only really make direct comparison between people in each heat so if one heat by chance happens to be particularly strong and another weak by comparison you might find that some stronger couples get eliminated before they should in all fairness and that some weaker couples get through to a round that perhaps they shouldn't.

On Monday night I was on my way out when the teacher asked me to demo some new steps. So I immediately did a whole dance with my Barbour!

Hi Alex

I think you are quite right I do think there is a subset of people who take dance classes and never pluck up the courage to take it out to a social level. This strikes me as a big pity. It was the same for me with AT. It took me ages to risk exposing myself to the social dance floor. In fact initially I volunteered to take the money at the door at Milongas so I didn't have to actually dance.

I don't know what the ballroom scene is like but, as Henry hinted and I agree, the AT scene can be rather elitist and not always very welcoming and I am sure this puts many newcomers off. This seems to me to be something that we (social dancers) need to be aware of and avoid. It is in all our interests to encourage as many people into our hobby as possible isn't it? Surely by welcoming and encouraging new people into the scene we increase the number of active dancers. More dancers means more dances and more partners and eventually over time more good partners.

I think this is why salsa has been so successful in recent years. Notwithstanding the fact that it is really easy to pick up the basics; someone with a reasonable sense of rhythm can be up and running after about 3 classes. But I think it owes its success to the fact that it is social from the word go. Classes tend to be in very public places (which of course isn't practical for progressive dances usually) , you don't need to bring a partner, leads and followers are rotated throughout the class and social dancers are usually arriving before the teaching finishes. I always make a point of having my first couple of dances with beginners (I ask them to dance). I figure that way I am investing in my own future enjoyment. The idea of looking down ones nose at those still learning their basics makes no sense at all to me. Drag them in and get them hooked I say.

[quote=AlexR!;75296880
Just another thought on the split between competition and social dancers. I think that there is a third type, and it is actually a fairly significant number - those for whom the enjoyment is in learning the dances and technique, but then neither compete, do medals nor dance socially, apart from maybe a single annual Ball. Many of our class over the years have been content to stop there. Certainly for us, my wife and I really had to push ourselves well clear of our comfort zone to dance socially. The skills required to change angles and steer around the floor whilst varying the steps are hard to teach in isolation, and seem best achieved by trial and error. Lots of error. [/QUOTE]

Yes I think you may be correct. I am sure there are many couples that may just enjoy having private lessons to learn, and/or just attend a class with other couples in which they learn some basic technique and a routine to dance. Not everyone wants to compete or take medal tests, as you say. Floorcraft is a skill in itself and can only be practised with other couples, so take the plunge and keep going to the socials and you will find, quite soon, that you will react quite naturally and immediately if there are couples in your way. At the start, you will most likely feel the urge to stop and think " what can I do here", but after a while it will be second nature just to react and lead your partner into a " get out of trouble step" (as me and my partner call them). If you dance Fox, a great one to learn is a top spin.

[quote=Jennifer_F;75298297][quote=AlexR!;75296880 One question though, if you precede with 1-3 of a natural turn, presumably the first pivot has the lady coming forward and providing the initial impetus? If so, how do I lead that?

I'll do my best !! Difficult putting it in writing, easier to demonstrate....
From the 3 steps of a natural, you will have ended with hopefully a lovely sway to your RIGHT keep weight forward taking care to keep arms forward ( many men are back weighted here and take their arms back). Knees slightly flexed, feet together.At the end of 3, lose the sway, you need to lower strongly into your right knee, drop your left foot back with your weight still on R. CBM shape. This alone with invite the lady to come forward past you. The lady is coming forward so it is her power step that will start the pivot. Hope this helps[/QUOTE]

Sway to the right, stretch of left side..

I am sure you are right Jennifer. At the level I am involved we have lots of people who come along to classes as a very casual pastime. It seems to be used as a way of keeping active, somewhere to go, a bit of exercise, some thing wifey and hubby can do together or no doubt many other reasons.

But I do feel if we could encourage enough of these to discover their confidence and the enjoyment of dancing for the sake of it, we would all benefit because it would be economically viable for to put on dances.

Hi Alex! Are you going to start sneaking some pivots in so he has to teach us?!


Jennifer, how does this differ from the lead into a natural spin turn? Thanks.

Just to explain a bit about AT Milongas which have been discussed - for those perhaps unaware.

"Milonga" has two meanings. It is a social dance as well as a style of music and dance within Tango.

Tango has three styles - Tango, Milonga and Vals (Waltz)

A social dance can be a Milonga or a Practica (practice) . Some places have a Milonga and a Practiica room on the side for practice and trying out steps with a partner.

In Milonga no instructions or suggestions are made or appreciated during the dance. In fact no conversations during the dance.

Milongas come as a series of Tandas - groups of three or four songs broken by a Cortina (curtain) of random music to clear the floor and change partners.

No "thank you" after each of the songs in the Tanda as that means "You are a rubbish dancer and I'm off in the middle of the Tanda".

No Salsa or Merengue demonstration is permitted if the Cortina happens to be Salsa or Merengue music ...

Traditionally there is the "Cabeceo" by the leader to invite a seated follower to dance - basically eye contact and response with a positive smile or a negative looking away or nowadays into the smartphone.

On music here is Tango. Smiling is strictly forbidden during a Tango dance.

http://youtu.be/3TMO2wbXVwg?t=30s

Milonga. Smiling is allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4G03HpzArc

Vals. Not sure if smiling is allowed during a Vals. Maybe just a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2edMx_jGHs

I am sure Anthro will correct me on much of the above ...

Here is the follow-up

Salsa Dance Etiquette for Follows: How to Avoid Being Blacklisted When Social Dancing

http://danceclasschallenge.wordpress...ocial-dancing/