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Old 22-10-2014, 17:07
Firegazer
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Can anyone tell me the point of that little scene where she pulled out some of her hair? Was it from stress, some sort of pregnancy side effect I've never heard of, or am I just missing something?
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:10
gina_lok
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She was stressed when she got left alone in th room with the rapist so she was pulling at her hair basically hoping he wouldnt go near her
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Old 22-10-2014, 17:14
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It was a sign of how freaked out Linda was with being left alone in a room with her rapist, who "unintentionally" blocked the doorway. She was pulling at her hair as a way of keeping herself from freaking out, to the point where she pulled her hair out without realising it.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:00
eejm
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I thought maybe the stress Linda has been under has caused her to start losing her hair, and that this is perhaps the first sign of it. However, people can develop trichotillomania as a response to excessive stress as well. Poor Linda. After all she's been through and has yet to face she doesn't need this too.

Dean is giving me the absolute willies with his behavior around Linda. I was really creeped out when he wouldn't let her leave the room yesterday. He's not overtly threatening or bullying her, and his attempts at conversation seem rather tame. He seems easygoing and happy around others. I'm trying to figure out if he's aware of what he's doing, or if he's so weirdly obsessed with Linda and so convinced they had a one-night stand that he wants to control the room when she's in it. Yet when others mention on oddly Linda's been behaving, Dean seems a bit sad. It's very unsettling and still makes me think this is a sign of Dean slowly having a mental breakdown.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:17
kitkat1971
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Can anyone tell me the point of that little scene where she pulled out some of her hair? Was it from stress, some sort of pregnancy side effect I've never heard of, or am I just missing something?
Stress. She was probably pulling on it as a counter irritant to stop herself from falling apart in Dean's company. It is actually quite a common sympton of stress or anxiety.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:18
kitkat1971
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It was a sign of how freaked out Linda was with being left alone in a room with her rapist, who "unintentionally" blocked the doorway. She was pulling at her hair as a way of keeping herself from freaking out, to the point where she pulled her hair out without realising it.
Exactly this. It is another from of digging your fingernails into the palm of your hand when you are having an injection or dental work done. Taken to extremes it can develop into self harm as well.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:22
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Exactly this. It is another from of digging your fingernails into the palm of your hand when you are having an injection or dental work done. Taken to extremes it can develop into self harm as well.
Ian scratches himself when he is stressed out, ever since his breakdown. I find it realistic when he does.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:35
kitkat1971
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Ian scratches himself when he is stressed out, ever since his breakdown. I find it realistic when he does.
So do I. I have a relative who started to literally pull his hair out when he got depressed. He kept his hair very, very short to try and stop himself but could still manage to get a hold and pull it out. It is a horribly upsetting thing to see, especially as you know it will just upset them more and make it worse if you comment on it or tell them how bad the patches look.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:43
Lizzie Brookes
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I thought maybe the stress Linda has been under has caused her to start losing her hair, and that this is perhaps the first sign of it. However, people can develop trichotillomania as a response to excessive stress as well. Poor Linda. After all she's been through and has yet to face she doesn't need this too.

Dean is giving me the absolute willies with his behavior around Linda. I was really creeped out when he wouldn't let her leave the room yesterday. He's not overtly threatening or bullying her, and his attempts at conversation seem rather tame. He seems easygoing and happy around others. I'm trying to figure out if he's aware of what he's doing, or if he's so weirdly obsessed with Linda and so convinced they had a one-night stand that he wants to control the room when she's in it. Yet when others mention on oddly Linda's been behaving, Dean seems a bit sad. It's very unsettling and still makes me think this is a sign of Dean slowly having a mental breakdown.
I agree with the bits in bold - I think Dean is still obsessed with Linda to some extent and is on the verge of a breakdown. He's probably saddened by her behaviour because he feels partly responsible due to the "one night stand" he thinks they had. He's too messed up to realise what he did was rape though we know it was and so does Linda.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:44
Lizzie Brookes
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She was stressed when she got left alone in th room with the rapist so she was pulling at her hair basically hoping he wouldnt go near her
It was a sign of how freaked out Linda was with being left alone in a room with her rapist, who "unintentionally" blocked the doorway. She was pulling at her hair as a way of keeping herself from freaking out, to the point where she pulled her hair out without realising it.
Stress. She was probably pulling on it as a counter irritant to stop herself from falling apart in Dean's company. It is actually quite a common sympton of stress or anxiety.
I agree.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:46
james_killroy
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I agree with the bits in bold - I think Dean is still obsessed with Linda to some extent and is on the verge of a breakdown. He's probably saddened by her behaviour because he feels partly responsible due to the "one night stand" he thinks they had. He's too messed up to realise what he did was rape though we know it was and so does Linda.
Dean doesn't think they had a one night stand at all. He knows full well he raped her. This was pretty much confirmed when Elaine confronted him in the toliet. This is the rapists M.O, they make their victim think its normal and that everything is ok.

I'm surprised given how obsessed some on here are with rape they cannot see this.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:51
Lizzie Brookes
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Dean doesn't think they had a one night stand at all. He knows full well he raped her. This was pretty much confirmed when Elaine confronted him in the toliet. This is the rapists M.O, they make their victim think its normal and that everything is ok.

I'm surprised given how obsessed some on here are with rape they cannot see this.
Not all rapists are the same though despite their heinous crime. Frank Foster for instance was completely sane and completely evil. Finn O Connor, Archie Mitchell and Trevor Morgan were sick but knew exactly what they were doing. Dean's behaviour is open to interpretation - some, like you think that he's manipulating Linda. Others, like me think he's delusional. He's definitely mentally unstable or Matt wouldn't be doing what he does with Dean's eyes. He was clearly obsessed with Linda (hence the drunken pass and the half hearted fling with Lauren), jealous of Mick and paranoid that he wasn't part of the family. He seemed to be genuinely in a state when Shirley left, and like another poster said he is not overtly threatening or bullying Linda.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:52
james_killroy
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Dean isn't mentally unstable or delusional. He is a rapist who is now manipulating the situation to keep control over Linda.

All this will become apparent as soon as Linda confesses and Dean blames everything onto her to cover his own ass.
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:57
_elly001
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Dean isn't mentally unstable or delusional. He is a rapist who is now manipulating the situation to keep control over Linda.

All this will become apparent as soon as Linda confesses and Dean blames everything onto her to cover his own ass.
How can you say this with such certainty? Do you not agree that it's deliberately being left ambiguous so that people can debate whether he's geninely deluded or is being deliberately manipulative?
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Old 22-10-2014, 18:57
Lizzie Brookes
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Dean isn't mentally unstable or delusional. He is a rapist who is now manipulating the situation to keep control over Linda.

All this will become apparent as soon as Linda confesses and Dean blames everything onto her to cover his own ass.
It would be completely boring if they turned Dean into a one dimensional evil villain along the lines of someone like Archie Mitchell. Matt said in an interview that they were playing a very grey area and that when he worked with London Probation some men were genuinely shocked to be accused of rape because they didn't interpret it that way. We must agree to differ. Dean is a rapist, I agree with that much but that doesn't mean that he is not mentally unstable/delusional. He changed when he came out of prison and developed a more sinister edge and how do you explain his behaviour before the rape? Matt himself said the rape wasn't premeditated and he never went there to do that. Then he was edgy - forgot to help himself to lunch, knocked over his orange juice - none of that was faked.
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Old 22-10-2014, 19:00
Lizzie Brookes
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How can you say this with such certainty? Do you not agree that its being deliberately being left ambiguous so that people can debate whether he's geninely deluded or is being deliberately manipulative?
I completely agree.

For a long time I thought just as James did that rape was a black and white issue - purely power/control driven, committed by evil monsters - then slowly over time, I realised that while the majority of rapes are like that, not all of them are, and there are different categories of rapists. Mom told me about the case of the footballer in the real world. Then I saw Forsyte Saga and ended up liking and feeling sorry for Soames despite being shocked that he raped his wife. The Jacqui/Gilly case in Hollyoaks was also not clear cut.
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Old 22-10-2014, 19:03
eejm
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I can understand how Dean's behavior can be seen as manipulative. However, I do think he's in the midst of a mental breakdown. He has been very volatile since his return, and he was clearly crushed when Shirley left. I also think Dean's probable rape in prison will tie into all of this. Simply put, Dean has been slowly coming undone due to a number of stressors, and he's developed a deeply unhealthy obsession with Linda as a way of "coping" with all of it.
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Old 22-10-2014, 19:05
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Dean forced himself onto Linda then violently raped her despite her telling him to stop. I wouldn't put that into the same category as date rape which is what some are comparing it to.

I would say Dean does know he raped her and has now slipped into a state of denial in order to make it normal to him. I will never forget my ex who was a social worker telling me about a case she worked on. A man had been sexually abusing a 6 year old girl yet in his mind they were actual lovers. He truly believed what he was doing was normal yet at the trial the realisation of what he had done finally hit him and he tried to commit suicide but not before confessing he had done it to someone else too.. That reminds me of Dean.
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Old 22-10-2014, 19:09
Lizzie Brookes
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I can understand how Dean's behavior can be seen as manipulative. However, I do think he's in the midst of a mental breakdown. He has been very volatile since his return, and he was clearly crushed when Shirley left. I also think Dean's probable rape in prison will tie into all of this. Simply put, Dean has been slowly coming undone due to a number of stressors, and he's developed a deeply unhealthy obsession with Linda as a way of "coping" with all of it.
I agree.
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Old 22-10-2014, 19:15
Lizzie Brookes
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Dean forced himself onto Linda then violently raped her despite her telling him to stop. I wouldn't put that into the same category as date rape which is what some are comparing it to.

I would say Dean does know he raped her and has now slipped into a state of denial in order to make it normal to him. I will never forget my ex who was a social worker telling me about a case she worked on. A man had been sexually abusing a 6 year old girl yet in his mind they were actual lovers. He truly believed what he was doing was normal yet at the trial the realisation of what he had done finally hit him and he tried to commit suicide but not before confessing he had done it to someone else too.. That reminds me of Dean.
I wasn't comparing the cases, just pointing out that there is variation amongst rape cases and rapists just as there is with murder, manslaughter, ABH etc.

Child abuse is worse than rape and probably the most heinous of crimes (worse even than murder imo) but I don't think you can compare what child abusers do to what rapists do. Both Harry Slater and Tony King used those lame excuses on their victims but were prepared to discard them when they turned 16.

In Dean's case, there is definitely some ambiguity over whether he is genuinely delusional or just convincing himself but given his behaviour since he returned I'd say he was definitely mentally unstable and has issues. Dean is not overtly bullying or threatening Linda either so he's not like other soap rapists.
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Old 22-10-2014, 19:33
_elly001
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I completely agree.

For a long time I thought just as James did that rape was a black and white issue - purely power/control driven, committed by evil monsters - then slowly over time, I realised that while the majority of rapes are like that, not all of them are, and there are different categories of rapists. Mom told me about the case of the footballer in the real world. Then I saw Forsyte Saga and ended up liking and feeling sorry for Soames despite being shocked that he raped his wife. The Jacqui/Gilly case in Hollyoaks was also not clear cut.
I don't believe in different categories of rapists or rape. I believe that rape is an act where a woman (or man) doesn't or can't consent or to sex but is forced into it anyway. If you go into different 'categories' then you inevitably go into victim blaming and 'did she say no clearly enough?' and 'has this man ever acted this way before' and all of that rubbish which creates the awful rape culture we live in. A man (or woman), if he has the mental capacity to do so, has a duty to think about the person he wants to have sex with, and has a duty to ask himself the question 'Has this person consented?' So in many ways it IS black and white, and Dean deserves no less sentencing than a 'monster' (God I hate that word) like Finn or whoever. The sentencing should be there to keep other people safe, for however long is necessary.

But Dean, if he is genuinely delusional, also needs professional intervention, something I expect he's never received despite presumably being raped and abused himself in prison.
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Old 22-10-2014, 20:35
Lizzie Brookes
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I don't believe in different categories of rapists or rape. I believe that rape is an act where a woman (or man) doesn't or can't consent or to sex but is forced into it anyway. If you go into different 'categories' then you inevitably go into victim blaming and 'did she say no clearly enough?' and 'has this man ever acted this way before' and all of that rubbish which creates the awful rape culture we live in. A man (or woman), if he has the mental capacity to do so, has a duty to think about the person he wants to have sex with, and has a duty to ask himself the question 'Has this person consented?' So in many ways it IS black and white, and Dean deserves no less sentencing than a 'monster' (God I hate that word) like Finn or whoever. The sentencing should be there to keep other people safe, for however long is necessary.

But Dean, if he is genuinely delusional, also needs professional intervention, something I expect he's never received despite presumably being raped and abused himself in prison.
BIB - Oh I didn't mean that. There is no doubt that Dean raped Linda but if he is genuinely delusional, then he also needs psychiatric help. Rape is rape no matter what but the way the crime was committed, the circumstances under which the crime took place and the behaviour of the criminal before and after the crime can vary from case to case and affect the viewers perception. For instance Frank Foster worked himself up into a violent rage, raped Carla and then taunted her afterwards not to mention that there was nothing mentally wrong with him whatsoever so he was evil. Finn O Connor was homophobic and bullied JP. The rape was a hate crime and he went on to batter Blessing, tried to rape Nancy and tortured JP, revelling in the power and control afterwards - that's why he is evil and it's easy to hate him.

Dean's case is different. He has clearly had mental health issues since he came out of prison, he was in a state over Shirley leaving, Matt said the rape wasn't premeditated and he didn't go there to do that. He was mentally unstable, jealous, paranoid, obsessed with Linda. Afterwards, he didn't overtly bully or threaten Linda but instead became increasingly delusional and also edgy, nervous and uneasy around the family - that's sort of prevented me hating him though I'm still shocked by what he did.

And if you don't believe in different categories of rapists/rape, how do you explain the grey cases like Gilly/Jacqui in Hollyoaks or the footballer in real life?
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Old 22-10-2014, 21:44
_elly001
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BIB - Oh I didn't mean that. There is no doubt that Dean raped Linda but if he is genuinely delusional, then he also needs psychiatric help. Rape is rape no matter what but the way the crime was committed, the circumstances under which the crime took place and the behaviour of the criminal before and after the crime can vary from case to case and affect the viewers perception. For instance Frank Foster worked himself up into a violent rage, raped Carla and then taunted her afterwards not to mention that there was nothing mentally wrong with him whatsoever so he was evil. Finn O Connor was homophobic and bullied JP. The rape was a hate crime and he went on to batter Blessing, tried to rape Nancy and tortured JP, revelling in the power and control afterwards - that's why he is evil and it's easy to hate him.

Dean's case is different. He has clearly had mental health issues since he came out of prison, he was in a state over Shirley leaving, Matt said the rape wasn't premeditated and he didn't go there to do that. He was mentally unstable, jealous, paranoid, obsessed with Linda. Afterwards, he didn't overtly bully or threaten Linda but instead became increasingly delusional and also edgy, nervous and uneasy around the family - that's sort of prevented me hating him though I'm still shocked by what he did.

And if you don't believe in different categories of rapists/rape, how do you explain the grey cases like Gilly/Jacqui in Hollyoaks or the footballer in real life?
I said that I felt Dean needed psychiatric help. But you could argue that ANY rapist needs psychiatric help - even Finn O'Connor. To show a complete lack of empathy, to the extent where you bully and gloat at your victim after it happens, suggests deep mental problems that need examination and hopefully some form of rehabilitative treatment.

I don't believe it's up to us as human beings to make moral judgements about things we know nothing about, to say, "This guy is a monster, this guy is sympathetic even though what he did was terrible." I believe in keeping people safe, imprisoning those who have been convicted of being a threat to others, treating mental health issues as a sickness in the same way we treat things like cancer, and not judging people when we have NO idea what is going on in their head or why they act the way we do. In many ways I get very uncomfortable when soaps cover things like rape, because it inspires that sort of spectator sport culture where we boo and cheer like we're watching winners or losers. With that said, I do think EE is doing a great job with this storyline because they're challenging that notion of the stereotypical rapist and making it clear that the act itself has been soul-destroying for Linda, but not giving the audience the emotional pay-off we usually get in storylines like this where we can reassure ourselves that the rapist is pure evil scum and they'll get their 'comeuppance' (another word I hate) in the end.

As for the 'grey area' cases you're talking about: neither of those seem to me to be grey areas. There was never a 'grey area' for Jacqui; she knew from the start that Gilly had raped her, and eventually he admitted it himself. Had he been supressing the fact that he raped her? Almost certainly. But there was no 'grey area' when he did it; Jacqui knew that which was why she was always so unfaltering in accusing him.

The football case, I really know nothing about, other than the fact that it's stupidly difficult to find someone guilty of rape, and yet this footballer was found guilty, so there must have been some pretty compelling reasons why he was convicted.
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Old 22-10-2014, 21:54
E05297535
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Dean doesn't think they had a one night stand at all. He knows full well he raped her. This was pretty much confirmed when Elaine confronted him in the toliet. This is the rapists M.O, they make their victim think its normal and that everything is ok.

I'm surprised given how obsessed some on here are with rape they cannot see this.
My thoughts too....Dean knew exactly what he did. ..especially when he walked away quitely after the event. For me, confirmation of his knowledge was when Mick spoke to him outside the pub and hinted on seeing Linda, nothing was said about the rape to him or the family!!! Mick then walked off and Dean was sporting that sly grin of his! !!

Baffling how no one else could see that!!! Dean cornering her in the kitchen is a form of mind control, as he needs to reason with her and get linda to see that she wanted him too...inspite of her saying no!!
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Old 22-10-2014, 22:29
Lizzie Brookes
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I said that I felt Dean needed psychiatric help. But you could argue that ANY rapist needs psychiatric help - even Finn O'Connor. To show a complete lack of empathy, to the extent where you bully and gloat at your victim after it happens, suggests deep mental problems that need examination and hopefully some form of rehabilitative treatment.

I don't believe it's up to us as human beings to make moral judgements about things we know nothing about, to say, "This guy is a monster, this guy is sympathetic even though what he did was terrible." I believe in keeping people safe, imprisoning those who have been convicted of being a threat to others, treating mental health issues as a sickness in the same way we treat things like cancer, and not judging people when we have NO idea what is going on in their head or why they act the way we do. In many ways I get very uncomfortable when soaps cover things like rape, because it inspires that sort of spectator sport culture where we boo and cheer like we're watching winners or losers. With that said, I do think EE is doing a great job with this storyline because they're challenging that notion of the stereotypical rapist and making it clear that the act itself has been soul-destroying for Linda, but not giving the audience the emotional pay-off we usually get in storylines like this where we can reassure ourselves that the rapist is pure evil scum and they'll get their 'comeuppance' (another word I hate) in the end.

As for the 'grey area' cases you're talking about: neither of those seem to me to be grey areas. There was never a 'grey area' for Jacqui; she knew from the start that Gilly had raped her, and eventually he admitted it himself. Had he been supressing the fact that he raped her? Almost certainly. But there was no 'grey area' when he did it; Jacqui knew that which was why she was always so unfaltering in accusing him.

The football case, I really know nothing about, other than the fact that it's stupidly difficult to find someone guilty of rape, and yet this footballer was found guilty, so there must have been some pretty compelling reasons why he was convicted.
I agree Dean needs psychiatric help. You may have a point about Finn being sick due to his complete lack of empathy etc but I don't think he deserves psychiatric help due to how nasty he is.

Frank Foster in Corrie was completely sane though imo but that might have been an odd case.

Matt did definitely say there were different types of rapists though;

Matt: I worked heavily with the London Probation Centre, whose job it is to speak to these guys and help them realise that what they’ve done. One of the strangest things was when they were accused, arrested or whatever; their reaction is the same as what yours on mine would be. Genuine shock. There are different types, but the category we chose with Dean [is that] it’s instinctively pushed to the back of his mind.

Edit: Jacqui/Gilly - I meant grey in the sense that it wasn't a violent power/control tcase but rather him being discourteous and carrying on when she changed her mind half way thorough and after they were already in bed from what I understand. It was similar with the footballer I believe with the woman supposedly being too drunk to give consent.
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