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Camera Work - UK v US |
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#1 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,736
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Camera Work - UK v US
For the first time I have watched a routine from DWTS (Artem and Leah AT) and it is noticeable that the camera work is far superior in their dance than any in SCD! I am sorry to say this but I cannot understand why the BBC cameramen do not show the dancers' whole bodies. It was a brilliant dance shown in its entirety without ridiculous panning and swirling around.
BBC director please take note! |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Midlands
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My daughter lives abroad and dosn't see Strictly, she's over for a visit and saw it for the first time on Saturday - one of her first comments was -' what's with all the weird camera stuff, you can't see what they are doing '!!!
So many times the camera is blinded by the spotlights that you can't see anything at all, other times it's having so much fun swirling and jigging around that it becomes impossible to see the footwork. Often the judges comment on something that we havn't seen because the camera was bobbing along by itself. I quite accept that a static camera would be unhelpful and a bit boring but I wish they would calm it down a bit. I am presuming they don't have a great deal of time to plan camera angles etc but less is more in this instance - imo of course. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 672
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I think the BBC invented the "weird camera work" that blights virtually all TV shows nowadays. The camera operators seem to want to add their own two-penny-worth, in terms of what they perceive as "artistry".
But artistry is NOT what is wanted by the viewer. The art of good camera work is actually to be completely unobtrusive to the viewers, such that they see everything they want to see. Unfortunately, that art seems to be long lost. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,818
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I agree abut the camera work on the two shows - it's usually much better on Dwts without being boring. (They do overdose on 'production' in other ways, though
)I hate the whirly-gig (un)steadycam stuff and the frantic cutting. I really noticed the lighting flares getting in the way on last week's Strictly. Surely that's 'what to avoid' at its most basic Sometimes reminds me of Top of the Pops circa 1975
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#5 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
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We have the Whirling Dervish Cameraman on Acid taking an overdose of double espressos. The cameraman should never be noticed by the viewer. This is a great article: The Art of Operating a Camera http://www.surreyborder.org.uk/artic...camera-art.htm Quote:
All too often today we see on professional television, badly framed, badly lit, out of focus, shaky camera work, with cameras never still for an instant. So if the professionals do it, it must be easy and OK for us to follow their example. Sadly, in this day and age, accountants run television companies, not entrepreneurs with vision. Cost conscious Production Managers will employ, Researchers, Production Assistants, Gophers etc. And if the opportunity offers itself will even use amateur video clubs, and their members to 'do it on the cheap' for their productions. They do often employ professional Cameramen, and then you won't notice the camera work, however expert it is. And this of course is exactly how it should be. The viewer should never, never notice the camera work. And after all this preamble this is where I am leading. The viewer should never be aware of the camera, or its operation. Every pan. every tilt. re framing should be 'motivated' and camera movement timed to coincide with artist movement, movement within the frame, or a musical phrase. Cutting between shots should hardly be noticed. and to achieve this, there have to be a few common denominators. ... Sad. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,933
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One thing they do on DWTS is a Sunday camera blocking for Monday's show. All the couples do a run through. Dress rehearsal is on the day of the show but camera blocking always takes place on Sunday. I assume it is so the cameramen can decide how to best captures the angles they need. I have never heard anyone on ITT or the pros or couples speak of this camera blocking process for SCD. Does anyone know?
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 9,818
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Quote:
One thing they do on DWTS is a Sunday camera blocking for Monday's show. All the couples do a run through. Dress rehearsal is on the day of the show but camera blocking always takes place on Sunday. I assume it is so the cameramen can decide how to best captures the angles they need. I have never heard anyone on ITT or the pros or couples speak of this camera blocking process for SCD. Does anyone know?
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#8 |
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wales
Posts: 1,397
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Most of the wonderful professional dances in SCD are ruined by swirling and cutting camera work. I want to see the synchronicity between the dancers and their movements. Poor camera work make them look messy and non-sync.
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#9 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
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Here are links to two other threads on the camera work for those that did not notice them
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2018543 http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2016851 |
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#10 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,462
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Quote:
I think the BBC invented the "weird camera work" that blights virtually all TV shows nowadays. The camera operators seem to want to add their own two-penny-worth, in terms of what they perceive as "artistry".
But artistry is NOT what is wanted by the viewer. The art of good camera work is actually to be completely unobtrusive to the viewers, such that they see everything they want to see. Unfortunately, that art seems to be long lost. |
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#11 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,185
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,462
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Quote:
We have the Whirling Dervish Cameraman on Acid taking an overdose of double espressos. The cameraman should never be noticed by the viewer.
This is a great article: The Art of Operating a Camera http://www.surreyborder.org.uk/artic...camera-art.htm The BBC seem to have thrown out the basics of Film-making 101 with the bathwater of Home Counties South Formation Military Two-Step. Sad. |
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#13 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
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Quote:
Excellent camera work. Minimum shots of 5 seconds with some upto 20 seconds. So restful and enjoyable. Clapping only at the end. No standing ovations. Here is the same couple's (Ballroom) Tango to shock horror Tango music. Juan D'Arienzo's "9 de Julio" I think it sounds like but an adaptation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPpVnOVhfPo The cameraman is following the dancers rather than creating his own movement. Classic. Here is a much earthier AT version of "9 de Julio" and that translates to a different dance style. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXy6t7HjbgM It is amazing how much better a dance can be if the dancers know the music well. 9 de Julio is a regular song at Milongas so I know it well and know what's coming up and chuck fast stuff in and slow it down. I say that because all the music should come from the celebs own music collection. There would be enough variation. |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15,736
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I am glad that most people agree with me!
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#15 |
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: In Svalbard with Mr Bear
Posts: 6,253
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The other Strictly favourite with the camerawork is to cut away to a long shot that makes the dancing couple look tiny just as they do something exciting in their routine. It really irritates me. In fact, my number one peeve with Strictly is the manic camerawork which makes me feel like I'm missing what is going on.
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#16 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,462
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Quote:
I thought Come Dancing was only Black & White!
Excellent camera work. Minimum shots of 5 seconds with some upto 20 seconds. So restful and enjoyable. Clapping only at the end. No standing ovations. |
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#17 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
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Quote:
What were the viewing figures for Come Dancing when it was dropped in 1998? I seem to remember it was shown late at night which suggests it was not attracting a large audience.
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#18 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: in the Sun (ツ)
Posts: 11,223
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More like camera w**k in the British show. And I'm not talking about work being a four-letter word.
The most important element in the camera work is the producer. If you have four cameras, what's most important is to let the cameramen do their thing naturally and switch the view on the control desk for the most telling view. The producer should be paying careful attention on the Friday to the venue training and preferably to the other training footage as well to select the shots. The other week Judy launched herself into Anton's arms from the stage as the party piece and the producer switched to a wide shot so you got none of its glory. Inept use of the console desk. I don't know who they have on the cameras but I think they would be better of contracting cameramen from Wimbledon or sporting events rather than people fresh out of Film School. |
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#19 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
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Quote:
More like camera w**k in the British show. And I'm not talking about work being a four-letter word.
The most important element in the camera work is the producer. If you have four cameras, what's most important is to let the cameramen do their thing naturally and switch the view on the control desk for the most telling view. The producer should be paying careful attention on the Friday to the venue training and preferably to the other training footage as well to select the shots. The other week Judy launched herself into Anton's arms from the stage as the party piece and the producer switched to a wide shot so you got none of its glory. Inept use of the console desk. I don't know who they have on the cameras but I think they would be better of contracting cameramen from Wimbledon or sporting events rather than people fresh out of Film School. No audience participation during rallies. No Whirling Dervish on Acid Cameraman running onto the court during rallies. Professional camera work. Very large international audience. No standing ovations unless really good match. |
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#20 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 497
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Sadly the director being what used to be known as a "Tin Hitler", i.e. someone promoted beyond their talent, will give you what suits the BBC not what suits the viewer.
When I was learning to use a Cine Camera, (yes it was that long ago) one of the golden rules involved camera stability. This was no doubt because of the technology is use at the time. Now the idiots have all thses new toys to play with, they simply HAVE to use them in order to justify their expense. No matter that it detracts from the viewers enjoyment of the show. I can almost hear the conversations on the gallery: "Viewers? What do they know about televison? They should leave it to us." It reminds me of a visit I may to a not inexpensive restaurant. As we were leaving the Head Waiter asked me if I had enjoyed the meal. "Quite frankly, no not much." "Then you should try educating your tastebuds sir." was his reposte. Needless to say It will be a longtime before I enter his premises again. He should perhaps have asked me what I didn't like intead of insulting me. The BBC strictly crew is sadly beyond redemption. Such a pity because it USED to be such a great show, until it became under the grasp of someone with the mentality of a ten year old boy. |
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#21 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,185
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Quote:
I thought Come Dancing was only Black & White!
Excellent camera work. Minimum shots of 5 seconds with some upto 20 seconds. So restful and enjoyable. Clapping only at the end. No standing ovations. Here is the same couple's (Ballroom) Tango to shock horror Tango music. Juan D'Arienzo's "9 de Julio" I think it sounds like but an adaptation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPpVnOVhfPo The cameraman is following the dancers rather than creating his own movement. Classic. Here is a much earthier AT version of "9 de Julio" and that translates to a different dance style. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXy6t7HjbgM It is amazing how much better a dance can be if the dancers know the music well. 9 de Julio is a regular song at Milongas so I know it well and know what's coming up and chuck fast stuff in and slow it down. I say that because all the music should come from the celebs own music collection. There would be enough variation. haha that made me laugh re black and white - but clip made me feel old as I was there when it was filmed - Andrew is a great dancer love his ballroom and of course he is from Livepool did you notice the old come dancing clip with Ian and anton was embarrased to learn anton used to dance with Diane Smith who is on my fb and i slate him on there here is clip ian and anton from 2.18 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeRx...DCuFxcSvOUTreA |
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#22 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,802
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Quote:
More like camera w**k in the British show. And I'm not talking about work being a four-letter word.
The most important element in the camera work is the producer. If you have four cameras, what's most important is to let the cameramen do their thing naturally and switch the view on the control desk for the most telling view. The producer should be paying careful attention on the Friday to the venue training and preferably to the other training footage as well to select the shots. The other week Judy launched herself into Anton's arms from the stage as the party piece and the producer switched to a wide shot so you got none of its glory. Inept use of the console desk. I don't know who they have on the cameras but I think they would be better of contracting cameramen from Wimbledon or sporting events rather than people fresh out of Film School. |
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#23 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9,514
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Quote:
Sadly the director being what used to be known as a "Tin Hitler", i.e. someone promoted beyond their talent, will give you what suits the BBC not what suits the viewer.
When I was learning to use a Cine Camera, (yes it was that long ago) one of the golden rules involved camera stability. This was no doubt because of the technology is use at the time. Now the idiots have all thses new toys to play with, they simply HAVE to use them in order to justify their expense. No matter that it detracts from the viewers enjoyment of the show. I can almost hear the conversations on the gallery: "Viewers? What do they know about televison? They should leave it to us." It reminds me of a visit I may to a not inexpensive restaurant. As we were leaving the Head Waiter asked me if I had enjoyed the meal. "Quite frankly, no not much." "Then you should try educating your tastebuds sir." was his reposte. Needless to say It will be a longtime before I enter his premises again. He should perhaps have asked me what I didn't like intead of insulting me. The BBC strictly crew is sadly beyond redemption. Such a pity because it USED to be such a great show, until it became under the grasp of someone with the mentality of a ten year old boy. I know a lad in the broadcasting union. Works for a small independent filming unit. They just got a jazzy new documentary camera. Might work on Strictly a treat. |
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#24 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London
Posts: 4,710
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Quote:
haha that made me laugh re black and white - but clip made me feel old as I was there when it was filmed - Andrew is a great dancer love his ballroom and of course he is from Livepool
did you notice the old come dancing clip with Ian and anton was embarrased to learn anton used to dance with Diane Smith who is on my fb and i slate him on there here is clip ian and anton from 2.18 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeRx...DCuFxcSvOUTreA No Military Two Step. |
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#25 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,185
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Quote:
Thanks. Good to see Anthon and Ian.
No Military Two Step. haha you should not have mentioned it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBdJ08zlq5U two step at 2.22
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did you notice the old come dancing clip with Ian and anton was embarrased to learn anton used to dance with Diane Smith who is on my fb and i slate him on there
here is clip ian and anton from 2.18 onwards