I don't for a second believe everyone who doesn't like the change is sexist and I should have specified that but if you believe The Master shouldn't be a woman because she is a woman, I think it is sexist.

There are of course other valid reasons for not liking Missy. I personally prefer her to Jon Simm already but that is just my opinion. Peoples favorite master is really the same argument as peoples favorite Doctor.

I agree, change doesn't necessarily mean good at all, a lot of changes are bad but so far, this one clearly is not. Missy is played by a fantastic actress, she fits in with the cast like she has always been there and she has played a significant part in the story.

I honestly feel like people should be treating this like a normal regeneration but either because The Master is a woman or because of the gender change, a lot of people are already judging it as bad.

Especially when a lot of those people liked the character of Missy before and now are saying she is crap just because she's The Master in a female incarnation.

Can't wait for a female Doctor just to see This

Yes it does. Humans can have sex changes you know, besides we don't know if the Masters change is due to regeneration yet either.

I'm on the fence with this. I think the explaination of how this happened may decide whether I'm happy or not about the situation so will wait and see.

One thing I'm finding a little strange is the name he's given him/herself. 'The Master' was egotistical do even if that names been dropped I would expect an appropriate alternative, not Missy!

Should Doctor Who be written in terms of who has the most influential pressure groups or should writers just be allowed to get on with it ?

If the majority, of the viewing publlic wants change then fair enough but even so, what effects does that have on the creativity of any, writer ? No writer is isolated from influences from other people, no but ' writing to order' can, bring down quality in favour of bankability.

Yes, Conan Doyle brought Sherlock Holmes back, we all know that and I just mentioned, that no writer creates in isolation from public opinion.

It's easy to be amused and suggest that some people can't accept change or that they have prejudices but that doesn't guage what the majority of people can currently relate to or be in the process of relating to.

The trick is surely to tap into what works and keep, that link whilst making creative changes then seeing if they work.

The pressure for a female Master and a female Doctor might he loud but it isn't necessarily representative of the majority nor is it necessarilly the best option creatively.

Both, might work but if they don't, tv execs will just move on to a new show.
I prefer the reaction of the majority of viewers as a guide rather than the notions of execs reacting to pressure groups.

I'm laughing so hard at this thread to be honest. It's like saying "How dare you enjoy anything good in the world when there are millions of people dying for completely unrelated reasons?", it's just absurd.

It is indeed completely absurd to proceed on the assumption that global inequities must be resolved before people are allowed to make negative comments about television drama.

But this is also an opportune moment to say that Gomez was so much better than the dreadful John Simm.

To be frank it is the massive over-reaction that is the disappointing thing. It is fine not to like an episode but to act as if your life is ruined because of it does smack of someone who isn't aware of how lucky he is.

In answer to another question what have I done to help starving children. Well very little but then I do not go on moaning about how a show has been totally ruined either. I hope that we as a species and our Government will do the right thing. I have a good life and I am grateful for the fact and that means being level-headed about tv shows.

Does someone calling Stephen Moffatt - Muppett - really smack of a proper way to address your problems with the show? I do not as a rule get like this about well constructed arguments about the shows flaws but there really are some bad ones.

Woeful comeback that spectacularly fails to cover your embarassment at being caught out contradicting yourself.

The only one I see "massively over-reacting" is the person you see in the mirror every day. The same one starting threads drawing absurd connections between telly shows and starving African kiddies! It`s utterly ridiculous.

I haven't contradicted myself.

My point about Doctor Who fans over-reacting about stuff had no place in the episode discussion thread as it wasn't about the episode. It was about the amount of threads/comments over-reacting to elements of the show. Can you see how it should be discussed outside the episode discussion thread?

I am also guilty of this. I freely admit it. I went a bit overboard with the development of the Big Bang Theory. I then took a long hard look at myself - thought you are being a pathetic about this - and stopped whinging about it.

[quote=Straker;75448934]
Hey I get it.

You are top dog on this forum.

You are also on ignore.

Sadly, you have. You say you started this thread because it fit nowhere else and yet you had posted it elsewhere - this is the contradiction. Furthermore it has also been pointed out to you multiple times how ludicrous and offensive it is to attack critics of an episode by essentially saying, "stop whining about Dr Who because people in Africa are starving". It`s really a variation of Godwin`s Law where as soon a certain dictator is cited in an otherwise trivial discussion, then the person who namechecks said dictator is the one who has lost all perspective on the nature of what is being discussed. In this instance that is you.


I accept your capitulation in the face of my unassailable logic.

People have far too much time on their hands. You didn't like an episode. Big deal. Voice your opinion and move on.

As opposed to those who did like it whom you`re totally fine with saying so over and over and over and over.....?

Thus has it ever been.

See that's what some on here find impossible to understand. If you like something, it stands to reason you would want to shout about it. But if you dislike something, why would you want to spend your day talking about it? I don't have a go at those on here that dislike an episode for a real constructive reason. Fair enough, every episode can't be for everyone. But visiting a forum to bitch and laugh at others for feeling differently than you do is just nasty and pathetic.
Yesterday you quoted my post in the main episode thread in order to laugh at me and try to make me feel silly. That's not the same as heralding a program you enjoy.

And just for the record I find those that blindly defend the show quite irritating as well. What I can't abide however is cruel comments that are obviously not even pretending to be in jest or good humour. Just mean spirited for the sake of it.

More strawmen. A few minutes out of a day in the immediate aftermath. It suits your argument to assert that critics spend all day pouring bile and invective when actually all they do ("they" being people, like me, who have liked - and said so - previous eps in this season, comments that have not been met with attacks from admirers of same) is pop in now and again for five minutes, read what`s been posted and post themselves if the mood takes them.

Anyway, it`s such a pitiful forum refrain to meet criticism with "if you didn`t like it, why did you watch and/or why do you post about something you disliked?". Time and again this terminally weak attempt to stifle critics is used to stack the comments in favour of the positive. Dr Who is particularly guilty of this partisan gang-mentality from the hard-core fans.

I agree with you in that the constant 'don't watch it then' retort is pretty lousy. But just because you dislike something doesn't mean you have to be personal. Or argumentative. But I supoose you'll carry on with what you think is acceptable and so will I. It's all relative. I just don't see why nastiness is the default here. Not just with you, but it's just the general ethos of the forum. If you're not guarded and defensive with your opinions you get eaten alive. Even I'm guilty of it. It's depressing.

Yes but it wasn't.

All i'm meaning is that you can't judge whether people think a television show is 'nore important' when those are,'t the issues being discussed. I know a lot about politics and care passionately about real life events and appreciate how lucky I am to live where I do and that my problems are minimal in comparison to those that are starving or living in war zones or in dictatorships. So do most Doctor Who fans I know, some of whom are passionate and have made it their career. But i'n ublikely to get into that on a sci-fi or soap thread because generally is isn't relevent.

Within that, I don't think it is indictitive of a person's general outlook on life or priorities for them to express that something they gain a lot of enjoyment, relaxation and perhaps have devoted a lot of their leisure time to has been ruined for them and they are upset about it on a thread that only exists to discuss said programme.

Does this mean that given the choice they would rather have the show 'unruined' or save a starving child? Of course it doesn;t.

Good post, but I only said that jokingly as in that those issues should be in it more.

I agree. The real question is not the casting but the way the Master's being written by the writers now s/he's a woman.

It's worrying how the Master's personality has suddenly become all kissy, girly, flirty now that s/he just happens to be in a female body. There's very little left of the original Master's personality that's still recognisable. (Really only a tendency to make overcomplicated plots to invade the world with alien allies who will almost certainly betray her towards the end of the story, but you could say exactly the same thing about Tobias Vaughn, Mavic Chen, and dozens of second rate DW villains!)

I already had some doubts about how well the writers would handle a transgender regeneration, and this really doesn't fill me with confidence.

Yes, I thought you'd meant it jokingly. Didn't mean to come across so seriously!!! Yes, you're right, those issues should perhaps be addressed more - it's a good way for children to learn in a non threatening way.

On that aspect: after Saturday's ep, there seems to be an assumption among some DW fans that if you disapprove of the idea of Time Lords changing gender, this means you hate transgender people in real life- which is absurd.

You can criticise the idea of Moffat changing the Master's gender as an attention-seeking gimmick or another excuse for him to bring in his cliche "feisty women" characters- none of this means you are transphobic IRL.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. I can sort of buy that the Master would use his new femininity to make the Doctor uncomfortable, especially given how straight-laced Twelve is, but unless that's dropped pretty quickly and the Master gets back to business, I'll be disappointed. I thought we'd left all that behind with Eleven. I think we'd all hoped a returned Master would be less theatrical, not more!

I don't think anyone's suggesting that disapprovers hate transgender people, but that they have a certain amount of discomfort with the idea, which would naturally translate into discomfort with the individual. It's hard not to hear, "The Master has always been a male character, he should stay male", and not also hear, "Barry has always been a boy, he can't live as a woman".

For a safe fluffy comparison, take the Doctor's discomfort with Jack's new immortal status in Utopia - he's still the same friend he always was to the Doctor, but the Doc doesn't see him the same. That's worth a moment of self-questioning.

But people who decide to have gender reassignment surgery aren't
doing it to get publicity for a TV show.

We'll have to see "Death In Heaven" to get the full story, but so far the story hasn't
given a good narrative reason for the Master to change gender.
And Moffat (like RTD and JNT) has a history of putting in sensationalist
plot twists that don't necessarily stand up on repeat viewings.

So surely people can express misgivings about the Master
changing gender, without being accused of having discomfort or dislike towards real-world transgender people.

(FWIW: I do know one transgender DW fan online: however she hates the
post-2005 version and refuses to watch it).