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Old 02-11-2014, 12:57
M1kos
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From Sky news -


New Law Plan To Tackle Mobile Phone Blackspots


Proposed legislation could force Vodafone, O2, EE and Three to allow customers to 'roam' on to each others networks.
10:51, UK,
Sunday 02 November 2014

About a fifth of the UK is only covered by one or two networks

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Mobile telephone users could soon be able to talk to their friends even when they enter a signal blackspot, if proposed new legislation goes ahead.

Culture Secretary Sajid Javid wants to change the law to force networks to allow customers to switch providers when their phones cannot find a signal.

It has been estimated that a fifth of Britain suffers from an unreliable mobile phone signal.

The Government is expected to start a consultation process on the reforms this week.

It follows the failure of the 'big four' phone operators - Vodafone, O2, EE and Three - to reach an agreement on improving reception in areas where it is poor.

In most of the areas, at least one or two of the networks have sufficient coverage for people to receive a signal.

Mr Javid is understood to believe that the companies should be forced to allow 'roaming' between networks to ensure that everyone can receive a signal regardless of which operator they are with.

Currently, customers who have contracts with one network cannot make calls, send text messages or transfer data using another network.

Yet, whenever a customer travels abroad, they are able to use any network their operator has an agreement with.

A Whitehall source told The Daily Telegraph: "We want to eradicate this situation of partial not-spots.

"There is expected to be a consultation in the coming days and this could include a legislative option. If these companies do not change, we might force them to change."
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:29
Thine Wonk
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I cannot see how they'll make it work to be honest.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:32
wavejockglw
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This is likely to affect 3 and to a lesser extent EE mostly.

The widest coverage of the UK is by the legacy networks (O2 and Vodafone) using 2G GSM technology (FACT - Check coverage maps to confirm). Not much good for data but the priority looks like being voice and text for coverage of 'not spots' so the networks that stand to gain most from roaming will be those with the most geographic coverage.

This is not a game changer as such but it would mean that every mobile customer would have access to the same basic voice and text communications across the UK and that would be a benefit especially to those who visit rural locations. One has to wonder how much a roamed call or text would cost and what the networks would do to ensure that their customers did not roam when they had a usable signal from their SIM provider?

One thing is for sure, any coverage is better than none so this looks like a reasonable solution to solve the problem of 'not spots' as quickly as possible.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:34
Thine Wonk
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Wavejock how can you possibly say who it'll affect the most when the consultation of how it might work hasn't even begun yet.

You are just staggering.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:41
Jack_Wilson2
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There is no-way any provider will let Three UK heavy data users use their network.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:51
wavejockglw
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There is no-way any provider will let Three UK heavy data users use their network.
I don't think this is about data really as there are still lots of places where there is no mobile phone signal at all!

Roaming probably won't be free as the coverage across the UK is not equitable. Expect to pay a premium to use voice and texts where there is no 3G and perhaps the same may apply to use data where the legacy networks have not upgraded.

"Despite the widespread introduction of 4G, around 6.1% of UK homes still can’t receive a 3G signal from any of the four UK networks."

https://www.cable.co.uk/news/mobile-...ge--700000142/

6.1% represents quite a lot of places where roaming would apply, especially for those who have no 2G fallback.
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Old 02-11-2014, 13:53
Thine Wonk
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They'll certainly be a lot of challenges, a lot of the time these proposals get watered down. We'll have to see the outcome of the consultation, I think actually some of the networks would like national roaming in rural areas and they may be able to link up and agree between the networks.
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Old 02-11-2014, 14:08
wavejockglw
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One would have to watch when in rural areas as roaming also means that you would likely be charged to receive calls when using another network. This would hopefully be covered by EU limits currently and would disappear when roaming charges are banned throughout the EU in the near future. That is if the UK votes to remain part of the EU of course in 2017!
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Old 02-11-2014, 14:12
Thine Wonk
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That is a fair point, Ofcom is not saying it'll be free or included. The networks will have to put forward there proposals, one of which could be included home network allowance and then national roaming allowance or rate, or there could be many other ideas on the table.
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Old 02-11-2014, 14:39
digiwigi
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A roaming allowance makes sense; the networks being roamed onto will at least be compensated. I imagine it's more of a technical issue; you would only want to roam if you couldn't connect to your network over a number of minutes for instance; and then possibly at an inferior speed for things like web surfing as is generally the case with international roaming.
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Old 02-11-2014, 14:53
omnidirectional
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This is likely to affect 3 and to a lesser extent EE mostly.
It might not affect 3 a great deal. In a lot of rural areas I've visited (mainly in Wales) Three roams on to EE/Orange 2G.
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Old 02-11-2014, 15:16
Richard_T
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It might not affect 3 a great deal. In a lot of rural areas I've visited (mainly in Wales) Three roams on to EE/Orange 2G.
But have you tried to use data while roaming with three?
doesnt work.

On the surface it sounds like a good idea, but there are potentially quite a few issues.
If theres to be an extra charge ie Domestic roaming rates then how many people will inadvertently get charged domestic roaming rates? this is not much different to the current situation where ( for example) Tracy from Harlow had a phone bill for 1,000s after a holiday in Turkey

Then theres the network issue, unlike fixed line phone services, mobile networks are relativly recent additions to the UK telecoms scene built up by the likes of Cellnet and Racal Vodafone with further networks from Orange, Mercury One2One and Hutchinson 3G
Plus add to that the ease of getting pay as you go sim cards from all the major networks and the instant roaming plan doesnt sound to great after all if it goes through as is the end user will end up paying

A much simpler solution would be an acurate coverage map showing exactly what type of signal and services you will get from who and where, if your going to a certain area where your main network has no signal then its just a case of getting pay as you go sim compatable with that area and then having someway of setting up call /sms forwarding
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Old 02-11-2014, 15:30
Gigabit
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Some people have suggested that the whole telecoms infrastructure should be owned by one company and that it should be rented out to the respective mobile networks.
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Old 02-11-2014, 15:50
gazzz02
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I do feel the government are somewhat missing the point.

Firstly, given a few more years, there will only really be 2 networks coverage wise: MBNL and Cornerstone. Throw in the MIP masts (assuming they ever actually get built!) and actually, we'll be in a reasonably good position.

Secondly, and more importantly, the main reason for lack of coverage isn't actually the lack of will on the part of the operators, but rather the difficulties involved in getting planning applications approved for masts (especially in rural areas, which may have additional protections against planning applications which will impact the scenery). I've no problem with that, but the government can't go around giving areas protected status, and then complain about the lack of signal when the mobile networks aren't allowed to build there!

Yet again I find myself questioning why an MP has control/power over a section of government purely because they're an MP, rather than because they have any knowledge or understanding about the areas in which they control
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Old 02-11-2014, 16:08
moox
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There is no-way any provider will let Three UK heavy data users use their network.
You could turn that the other way around, would 3 be happy to let VF/O2 use their network since they can't be bothered to invest in their own 3G networks?

There's still a lot of places where EE and 3 are still the only 3G networks around
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Old 02-11-2014, 16:19
wavejockglw
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A much simpler solution would be an acurate coverage map showing exactly what type of signal and services you will get from who and where, if your going to a certain area where your main network has no signal then its just a case of getting pay as you go sim compatable with that area and then having someway of setting up call /sms forwarding
I doubt is the above is a 'simple' solution and would be a challenge for many mobile users.

Far easier for roaming to provide access when a home network has no coverage. A user has the option to use the service or not with no set-up or research needed.

Personally I think the roaming should be restricted to voice and SMS at least to start with. Basic communication should be the priority in not spots and perhaps after a review National roaming could be extended to data.
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Old 02-11-2014, 16:30
nafanny29
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Why should private companies be forced to share their infrastructure and services?

Can I expect to find Tesco products at an Asda store?
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Old 02-11-2014, 16:32
moox
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Why should private companies be forced to share their infrastructure and services?

Can I expect to find Tesco products at an Asda store?
Because mobile communication is a necessity and none of the networks wants to invest in 100% coverage?

The network operators might own the infrastructure, but the public owns the airwaves and temporarily leases it to them.

I can't see any of the networks being happy with sharing though.
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Old 02-11-2014, 17:00
omnidirectional
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But have you tried to use data while roaming with three?
doesnt work.
Yes, there's no data unfortunately, but Voice/SMS is better than nothing when visiting an area with no Three coverage. Presumably people who live in these areas have opted for other networks.

You could turn that the other way around, would 3 be happy to let VF/O2 use their network since they can't be bothered to invest in their own 3G networks?
This is a good point. It'll be interesting to see what they propose for data roaming. Maybe allowing voice/SMS only would be the best option, so networks (mainly O2/Vodafone) must continue to improve their own 3G/4G coverage.
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Old 02-11-2014, 17:38
Thine Wonk
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I can't see anyone signing up with a home network to roam most of the time. I suspect the operators will want to make roaming only happen when the home network cannot provide signal at all, and wouldn't necessarily include the home network talk plan on the roaming network.

I can imagine it being an option in the operators portal through to enable national roaming alongside international, and to see some kind of allowance of minutes, texts and data to be included with any other operator. I suspect the networks could reach some kind of agreement for limited amounts or speeds of national roaming in exchange for a termination rate.

It is the data side that will no doubt be the most difficult part of the debate.
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Old 02-11-2014, 18:17
Aye Up
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This is likely to affect 3 and to a lesser extent EE mostly.

The widest coverage of the UK is by the legacy networks (O2 and Vodafone) using 2G GSM technology (FACT - Check coverage maps to confirm). Not much good for data but the priority looks like being voice and text for coverage of 'not spots' so the networks that stand to gain most from roaming will be those with the most geographic coverage.

This is not a game changer as such but it would mean that every mobile customer would have access to the same basic voice and text communications across the UK and that would be a benefit especially to those who visit rural locations. One has to wonder how much a roamed call or text would cost and what the networks would do to ensure that their customers did not roam when they had a usable signal from their SIM provider?

One thing is for sure, any coverage is better than none so this looks like a reasonable solution to solve the problem of 'not spots' as quickly as possible.
I doubt data would be applicable but extending voice and text covereage would be the main aim of this project in the very least. Data is the next money spinner and I can't for the life of me see any of the 4 networks allowing data roaming.

There is no-way any provider will let Three UK heavy data users use their network.
Again this is likely to extend voice and text coverage. The amount Vodafone and EE are investing in their LTE networks, they would be reluctant to share that with anyone bar their partners (MVNO).

It might not affect 3 a great deal. In a lot of rural areas I've visited (mainly in Wales) Three roams on to EE/Orange 2G.
Alas but thats without data. Tbh the only company this will benefit in the whole would be Three as they would then get a 2G backup for areas without coverage. Something I found out didn't exist while out in North Yorkshire the other week.

You could turn that the other way around, would 3 be happy to let VF/O2 use their network since they can't be bothered to invest in their own 3G networks?

There's still a lot of places where EE and 3 are still the only 3G networks around
The opposite of that is also true....tit for tat and all that.

I can't see anyone signing up with a home network to roam most of the time. I suspect the operators will want to make roaming only happen when the home network cannot provide signal at all, and wouldn't necessarily include the home network talk plan on the roaming network.
You have hit the nail on the head, I don't think this will apply largely to big towns and cities or areas with a relatively large populus. I can see this being for want fo a better way to put it a wider scale version of the agreement Three has with Orange (EE).

UK Govt also has the operators by the bollox in one sense with the MIP. that is expected to be expanded in the coming years as BDUK begins to wind down. Funding from that pot I think would probably be directed towards firther upgrades and new site locations.

If anything I think the government may foot the bill for this and all all operators to work from a new mast.
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Old 02-11-2014, 18:17
M1kos
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I do feel the government are somewhat missing the point.

Firstly, given a few more years, there will only really be 2 networks coverage wise: MBNL and Cornerstone. Throw in the MIP masts (assuming they ever actually get built!) and actually, we'll be in a reasonably good position.

Secondly, and more importantly, the main reason for lack of coverage isn't actually the lack of will on the part of the operators, but rather the difficulties involved in getting planning applications approved for masts (especially in rural areas, which may have additional protections against planning applications which will impact the scenery). I've no problem with that, but the government can't go around giving areas protected status, and then complain about the lack of signal when the mobile networks aren't allowed to build there!

Yet again I find myself questioning why an MP has control/power over a section of government purely because they're an MP, rather than because they have any knowledge or understanding about the areas in which they control
Well said, the government should step in to stop councils turning down applications, that with as Gaz says above should do the trick,

Also I agree only voice and txt sholud be allowed to roam (and not for free either, maybe a £1 or £2 a month on your tariff if you wish to have the option1
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Old 02-11-2014, 21:48
Daveoc64
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Why should private companies be forced to share their infrastructure and services?
They're only licenced to use a finite public resource.

If you don't like Tesco or ASDA, you can open something to compete with them - you can't do that if you don't like any of the networks.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:38
Mark C
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They're only licenced to use a finite public resource.

If you don't like Tesco or ASDA, you can open something to compete with them - you can't do that if you don't like any of the networks.
Indeed. Perhaps as the mobile phone networks are effectively now part of the UK's essential infrastructure (like electricity, gas, water etc) it's time to align the industry in the same way.

Merge all the networks (as someone pointed out up thread there'll only effectively be two soon) and just have consumer facing virtual networks (in the same way that Tesco, Virgin, Giff Gaff etc currently operate)
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Old 03-11-2014, 18:13
The Lord Lucan
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Watch investment in networks dry up if this happens. We already really have two networks (well in 2016) and have the MIP not spot project in the works. This legislation is not needed. Just because David Cameron couldn't get coverage in Brighton the networks shouldn't be forced to share.. And how would that work anyways. Calls/Texts are on the drop, Data use is going through the roof.. Imagine Three's users started using Vodafones 3G network. That would be fun!

If the goverment want to do this.. They should buy the networks.
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