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Old 03-11-2014, 20:15
Mark C
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Watch investment in networks dry up if this happens. We already really have two networks (well in 2016) and have the MIP not spot project in the works. This legislation is not needed. Just because David Cameron couldn't get coverage in Brighton the networks shouldn't be forced to share.. And how would that work anyways. Calls/Texts are on the drop, Data use is going through the roof.. Imagine Three's users started using Vodafones 3G network. That would be fun!

If the goverment want to do this.. They should buy the networks.
They won't do that, any more than buying back National Grid and National Rail, but
mobile provision might just work if organised along the same lines (no pun intended) as electricity distribution and the railways ?
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Old 03-11-2014, 20:42
Thine Wonk
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Radio spectrum isn't actually that short though, it could be doubled overnight if Ofcom let the networks have other blocks, however there's a limit to how many billions companies can invest vs the prospect of getting enough customers to get a ROI.

Ofcom and the government want to be careful, as a the moment we have one of the lowest cost and widely rolled out networks, especially heading into the next couple of years with 98% geographic being projected + the mobile infrastructure project.

If they push the networks too hard, being international companies they'll sell out of the UK or play awkward with the government and start a whole new round of legal action like they did for several years over 4G with Ofcom.

I suspect preliminary discussions have already been had and that the networks actually want to share in super rural areas, but ironically current legislation prevents them from roaming agreements I think!
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Old 03-11-2014, 21:51
enapace
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Radio spectrum isn't actually that short though, it could be doubled overnight if Ofcom let the networks have other blocks, however there's a limit to how many billions companies can invest vs the prospect of getting enough customers to get a ROI.

Ofcom and the government want to be careful, as a the moment we have one of the lowest cost and widely rolled out networks, especially heading into the next couple of years with 98% geographic being projected + the mobile infrastructure project.

If they push the networks too hard, being international companies they'll sell out of the UK or play awkward with the government and start a whole new round of legal action like they did for several years over 4G with Ofcom.

I suspect preliminary discussions have already been had and that the networks actually want to share in super rural areas, but ironically current legislation prevents them from roaming agreements I think!
Err who has mentioned 98% geographic because that is not likely happening think you confusing geographic and indoor as that is completely different.
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Old 03-11-2014, 21:56
Thine Wonk
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Sorry you're totally right, it's 98% indoor population, my mistake.
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:24
planetf1
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There's technical issues with roaming too.. The phone will start hunting when it can't find it's home network. Good so far. It will then register with that network, but I have a suspicion it won't try to register on another network until it looses access to that network (even going from cell to cell).

This could cause issues with charging between networks, or if only calls/texts allowed would break data connectivity for far too long.

This is how "basic" roaming works AFAIK. There is the option to make this much more sophisticated so that it would switch back to the home network but this would require much more interop between the networks, potentially down to local cells knowing about the cells of competitor networks.
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:48
moox
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Certainly 3's 2G roaming is anything but smooth, and I'd assume that 3 and Orange put some effort into it to get it as good as possible
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Old 05-11-2014, 02:06
Everything Goes
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Culture Secretary Sajid Javid said he was determined to sort out the issue of mobile notspots. "It can't be right that in a fifth of the UK, people cannot use their phones to make a call. The government isn't prepared to let that situation continue,"

Meanwhile...

Matthew Howett, an analyst with research firm Ovum, thinks that the government's preferred plan of national roaming is "a messy solution that ought to be abandoned".

"The cost, complexity and side-effects of national roaming make it such an unworkable fix that the industry thought had been dropped,"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29897202
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:28
Mark C
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There's technical issues with roaming too.. The phone will start hunting when it can't find it's home network. Good so far. It will then register with that network, but I have a suspicion it won't try to register on another network until it looses access to that network (even going from cell to cell).
.
That was my experience when roaming abroad, though more recently (last 3-4 years) my phone does seem to jump back (un prompted) to its preferred foreign network
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Old 05-11-2014, 09:42
Glawster2002
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You could turn that the other way around, would 3 be happy to let VF/O2 use their network since they can't be bothered to invest in their own 3G networks?

There's still a lot of places where EE and 3 are still the only 3G networks around
There is a whole world of difference between, in this instance, installing a 3G network from scratch as Three have done compared to upgrading an existing network from 2G to 3G as the likes of Vodafone and O2 have had to do.

The problem in a lot of rural areas, like where I live, is the operators often share the same mast to cut costs so the benefits of any roaming are lost because the operators with coverage when I live, Vodafone and O2 because Three can't be bothered to invest , provide pretty much an identical service.

This will only really change when 4G is rolled out fully and micro and macro cell technology can be used to remove the necessity of the traditional mobile phone masts, as they do not need planning permission.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:31
tarzion
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From what I understand the proposal from the Govt. only applies to the 2G part for calls and texts.

And I am all for it.
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Old 05-11-2014, 11:17
rasseru16
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I think this is a fantastic idea, but only for roaming on 2G services.
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Old 05-11-2014, 11:50
Everything Goes
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Its all David Cameron's fault apparently....

Dropped calls between President Obama to Prime Minister David Cameron on the Vodafone network over Christmas led to the government getting bossy with the mobile networks, according to industry sources.

The PM was in rural Oxfordshire over Christmas and decided that “something must be done” about rural mobile coverage. But the proposed cure is an odd one – closer to proposals floated by teenage socialist firebrand Owen Jones – to nationalise the country’s mobile infrastructure than a traditional incentive-based policy.

Mobile coverage reaches 98 per cent of the population – but around a fifth of the landmass is without a signal. Some of the operator’s own estimates put the cost of bridging the gap between £2bn and £4bn – and there aren’t enough people in those rural notspots to justify the investment.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11...ming_parklife/
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:34
Mark C
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Its all David Cameron's fault apparently....

Dropped calls between President Obama to Prime Minister David Cameron on the Vodafone network.........
Stop there, the case for the prosecution rests m'lord
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Old 05-11-2014, 14:04
The Lord Lucan
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It will also cost the networks around £400-500 million to implement this on top of what they are currently investing. Guess who suffers.. Yes the customer, in two ways. 4G roll out will be further slowed down (first time it was due to silly spectrum licences being increased) and more expensive tariffs.

MIP seems to have been totally over looked by these idiots in Westminster. The best way to solve this issue is to keep networks competitive between each other (roaming would remove any coverage competition and stifle investment) and encourage investment through funding projects like MIP that make the hard to/little economic return areas to get coverage (much like the help FTTC is getting) where the operators pay a chunk & govt top this up.

Its all David Cameron's fault apparently....
I called that on page 1. Keep up
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Old 05-11-2014, 16:43
Gigabit
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Am I the only one who thinks this is a good idea?
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Old 05-11-2014, 16:52
Everything Goes
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Am I the only one who thinks this is a good idea?
Tumble weed rolls by and the wind whistle's.....

Yes
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Old 05-11-2014, 17:00
Everything Goes
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Vodafone: ‘As Vodafone and the other UK mobile operators have told the Government directly on a number of occasions, national roaming will not provide the people of the UK with better quality voice and mobile internet coverage. In fact, it would make coverage and quality significantly worse from the customer's perspective, with a much higher risk of dropped calls, lower battery life and negative impact on services such as voicemail.’

EE: ‘What we don’t want to do is implement the flawed concept of 'national roaming’. This will deteriorate network reliability for tens of millions across the UK, plus it also risks prices rising, which customers understandably won’t tolerate.’

O2
: ‘We have made our concerns over the national roaming proposals very clear and have advised the government on a range of alternative solutions to achieve the same ambition. National roaming will worsen the experience people have when using their phones and undermine future investment in mobile infrastructure in the UK.’


http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news-li...ry-reacts.aspx
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Old 05-11-2014, 17:01
WelshBluebird
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I really don't buy the argument that this would reduce competition. In many areas where this is needed, there is no competition. For example the few streets around my parents house are mobile blackspots, and have been since forever. There is one network (Vodafone) that you can get a signal on. If there was any competition based incentive, the other networks would have done something ages ago. But they haven't.

A roaming agreement would mean that in cases like this:
1 - People would actually have choice.
2 - If it was set up so the other networks had to pay Vodafone for access to the network via that mast, there would be an incentive for the other networks to actually put in their own masts to cover the area so they wouldn't have to pay Vodafone anymore.

I get the argument about costs, but couldn't it be maybe:
1 - Limited to 2g?
2 - Come out of a separate allowance (like used to be the case with minutes to other networks) / be an optional thing you get on more expensive plans?
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Old 05-11-2014, 17:02
roadshow2006
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Not spots tend to be not spots because there is no signal whatever the network. This doesn't address it. Only 2G means we won't get the investment in many rural towns for 3G. And I've found the technology here for existing transmitters is weak. They're on relays and when one breaks they all go down. Again not addressed.
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Old 05-11-2014, 17:23
enapace
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I think best way to tackle these not spots would be the mobile version of BDUK where the operators put some of the money forward and the rest is public funding to allow new masts to be built think something like that would work quite well.
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Old 05-11-2014, 20:52
rasseru16
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Am I the only one who thinks this is a good idea?
No, i think the mobile operators should stop being greedy and share :P
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Old 05-11-2014, 21:22
gazzz02
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The issue is that the masts this applies to will generally be quite remote, and have very limited backhaul (often down to location). I'd guess they generally have (at most) an E1 circuit, so the most they can ever deal with is 30 simultaneous calls (although in reality that would be less as some channels will be given over to data too). This backhaul might be fine for a single operator, but what you're potentially faced with is 5 times the traffic on that mast, which could mean the customers of the mast operator are unable to make calls because customers of a completely different network are using up all the channels.

Hardly seems fair to the operator that has bothered to build a mast that their reputation is damaged due to being 'unreliable', all because the other operators can't be bothered to install a mast themselves
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:17
Mark C
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No, i think the mobile operators should stop being greedy and share :P
+1

It can't be that difficult, Johnny Foreigner is obviously able to do it when he visits, and we already can for 999/112 calls ?

http://consumers.ofcom.org.uk/news/connecting-citizens/
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:17
Daveoc64
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It can't be that difficult, Johnny Foreigner is obviously able to do it when he visits, and we already can for 999/112 calls ?
Please explain why you think that either of those things is relevant.

There are lots of issues with the suggestion by the government, and most of them are not technical. Have you thought of any?

I take the view that it would ultimately be damaging to consumers, possibly putting them in a worse situation than they have now.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:37
Mark C
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Please explain why you think that either of those things is relevant.

There are lots of issues with the suggestion by the government, and most of them are not technical. Have you thought of any?

I take the view that it would ultimately be damaging to consumers, possibly putting them in a worse situation than they have now.
Most of the objections from the networks, actually seem to be technical. We had all this nonsense back in 1998 about being able to send SMS messages between networks, there was a lot of bleating back then, but, hey, it all got solved.

The networks constantly want their safe cartel preserved, that's what's driving this 'can't do' culture, as I've said up thread, mobile network provision needs to be centralised (nationalised if you like) it's now too important not to be, and managed by a single organisation , let the telcos just become service providers, buying capacity (IMHO)
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