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Doctor Who - S8E12 - Death in Heaven - 8th Nov '14 - BBC One (HD) @ 8:00pm


View Poll Results: What did you think of the episode?
Excellent 162 40.60%
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Average 76 19.05%
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Poor 33 8.27%
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:56
Koquillion
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Just pondering the fear factor 'loss' of the Cybermen, that some have talked about on here and I wonder if its not just to do with the disensitivity we are experiencing of seeing them often or that its an old sci fi cliche of man in machine but an aesthetic situation. For me they always look like they are made from very lovely brushed aluminium maybe it would be more severe if the metal looked worn and dirty at the joints..the true impact of flesh combined with machine ..i guess when we consider things like surgical instruments the horror of the thought of victorian medicine etc is that the equipment wasnt hyper clean. I know it sounds like it could be too gruesome for a family show and im not stating it should be absolutely horrific, just perhaps less well buffed and pleasing..more like heavy metal that is heavy and would feel heavy and weighty and would make horrible scraping sounds as it walked ..the feeling that if it touched you it could crush you..less like a new car without a paintjob and more like a scrapyard but efficient and strong.

Saying that I do understand the flight attendant point of that Missy scene (for one I liked her play..she is so naughty and mad and funny..I began to root for her a little bit) but also the power of the fear of the Cyberfolk is that unison movement. The only thing that bothered me last week was that when they walked down St.Pauls steps it wasnt in complete unison..which I know would be difficult as they were all at different levels but that hive mind process removes the humanity aspect of them completely..it makes them seems gigantic and unforgiving and us small and insignificant.
A post that actually does deserve its own thread and it will, sadly, be buried for ever in the crap cascade that is the episode discussion thread. Alas!!

I'm just glad their boots didn't have laces!!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNUdpril8U...nap-480505.png
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:01
sionnaigh
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http://io9.com/all-of-doctor-whos-bi...lar-1656439341

Pretty much sums it up 'nicely'.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:07
DiscoP
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The Cybermen have always been rubbish. Humans converted into cyborgs is now such a boring trope idea that it's extremely difficult to make it interesting.

The scary, exciting part about Cybermen is when they activate and that was done wonderfully in Dark Water, as it was in Tomb of the Cybermen. After that they're just metal men stomping around in a vaguely stupid looking way. What remaining fear factor they may have remaining is crushed entirely by our familiarity with them.

Moffat gave them the best possible treatment. But they're a dud. They've been an outdated, played-out concept since the 1970s.

Cybermen are boring, boring, boring. If they'd never been created by Kitt Peddler and Gerry Davis in the 60s they wouldn't be created now because the idea would be thrown out for being old and tired. Their use by date was long, long ago.
What makes you say that they are an outdated trope? Not exactly the same thing but the Iron Man films seem to be doing rather well.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:11
DiscoP
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A post that actually does deserve its own thread and it will, sadly, be buried for ever in the crap cascade that is the episode discussion thread. Alas!!

I'm just glad their boots didn't have laces!!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZNUdpril8U...nap-480505.png
Even though the effects don't hold up now. I actually found the original Cybermen walking in front of St. Paul's scene far more impressive than the version re-created last week.

I agree with sonicsocks says too about the design of the Cybermen. I found the Borg in Star Trek looked far more sinister as cyborgs go.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:15
claire2281
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There's lots of great ideas and analysis there. And also a lot that people obviously didn't pick up by watching it which is a fault of the writer, not the viewer. It's the writer's job to get these things across with clarity (show don't tell!) and I think for me this series has just highlighted that characters really aren't Moffat's strong point hence why attempting a character led series felt flat for me
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:19
seejay63
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In an earlier episode we saw the grandson of Clara and Danny. Presumably she's pregnant now otherwise that episode couldn't have happened.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:28
saralund
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I'm sure it's possible that Danny will be resurrected but in a different time, ie the future. Although I don't know how he'd get hold of the tin soldier. That would be a good twist for the Christmas special.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:28
adams66
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I don't over analyse Doctor Who like some people on here: I think it spoils the enjoyment of the show and I don't have to prove how clever (I think) I am by pulling apart a story piece by blooming piece.

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode: good people died, bad people died, and a good dead person came back - and got his wish of a salute from the Doctor.

The ending was great: Nick Frost as Santa Clause - fab

I will be voting excellent when to poll is up and running.
Spot on Jimbo, I absolutely agree with the sentiments in your post.
I've been a big fan for 41 of my 47 years, and I have always enjoyed Doctor Who.
I'm not shallow, not a sheep, not a Moffat boot-licker, I'm a regular person who generally enjoys a generally enjoyable TV programme.

I genuinely can't see what people get out of ripping each episode apart and finding fault with everything. It's not like your views will change anything. The programme is made, finished, broadcast - Moffat isn't going to re-edit the thing just to satisfy rabid angry fans. How negative, how miserable, how empty are these people's lives if they want to spend hours and hours painstakingly picking apart a TV show that mostly gives enjoyment to millions across the world. Yes, discussion can be fascinating, but posts saying things like "That Was Crap" add nothing to this forum, and achieve nothing either, other than satisfying the poster's ego. If you think it was crap at least have the sense to back up your point of view.

Yes, there are always faults, in everything we see and do, every day of the year. Nothing is perfect.

But Doctor Who is a lovingly made programme, helmed by dedicated and passionate people and it appeals to people young and old, worldwide. I can't think of a single other TV programme with such a vast appeal as Doctor Who, and I'm proud to be a fan of this show.

And I'm disappointed by the extreme negativity and hatred directed at the show by some people who claim to be fans. I genuinely don't understand why, if you hated something so much, you'd masochistically put yourself through the sheer torture of watching every week. There's hundreds of TV shows I don't like, but I don't waste my life bitching about them on internet forums. I simply don't watch. I really cannot understand the need for some 'fans' to put themselves through hell each week and then bring down everyone who's enjoyed the show by their constant moaning.
Please, find something constructive to do with your lives.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:29
eggshell
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It does indeed.

I have to say that I don't buy that the concept behind the Mastress picking Clara was that strong..I'd have left that alone if I was Moff..it was another over promise under deliver piece from him.

I really dont get this :

Missy's Cyber-zombies have flown up into the sky, all over the world, and exploded into black clouds of "Cyber-pollen" (don't ask), which has rained down onto the world's graveyards and assorted funeral parlors, reanimating the dead of humanity and turning them all into more Cyber-zombies. But the clouds are still there, and Danny reveals that the clouds are going to rain down more Cyber-pollen and kill all living humans, turning them into more Cyber-zombies.

The only way to stop the clouds from killing all of humanity is for the Doctor to accept Missy's "gift."

How would the Doctor accepting the gift stop the rain. I'm not clear on Missus argument here.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:31
jimbo_bob
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I'm sure it's possible that Danny will be resurrected but in a different time, ie the future. Although I don't know how he'd get hold of the tin soldier. That would be a good twist for the Christmas special.
I hope he isn't. I liked Danny, but sometimes it would be nice if a dead character could stay dead. However, in a slightly hypercritical comment, I would like to see the Missy?Master back - she was deliciously evil
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:32
Lady of Traken
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I actually didn't like that very much. First one all season really (apart from the Forest).

It was a good idea, but just executed quite poorly. Did the villains need to be Cybermen? Couldn't they have been some sort of zombies created by The Master? I guess they kind of did so they could fly but still, seemed a bit weird.

I would have liked it if The Master had explained things more, we kind of got a gist of why he/she was doing things but not really a good look at it. IMO a better resolution would have been 'The Time Lords sent me here, sent me here to get your attention and to gather an army. An army to help fight in the Time War' but we didn't really get much of a reason (or at least I didn't get much of a sense of purpose out of what The Master was doing. To give The Doctor an army so they could be like they used to be? What?)

I think the whole recruitment of Clara was a bit of a damp squib too. I had to get somebody whose orders you would follow, who would get you to do what I wanted?

Shame really as I think this has been quite a strong season overall. Hopefully next year will be just as good with as many interesting tales as this one!
I really liked your whole post Gene as you highlighted some of the real weaknesses of the story. As much as I liked parts of the story mostly due to the main actors ( bar danny pink ) performances) the reasoning of the master/ missy wanting his friend back was quite odd/ weak.

BIB Really liked your idea, much stronger than the actual story we got . The doctor is a good man and not an idiot with a box despite what the script said ! I'm disappointed that we didn't get to know why the Master changed gender or how he escaped Gallifrey too.

The recruitment of Clara by the Master seems like a tagged on idea this year as last season with the 'impossible girl' story she went to great lengths to help the Doctor
and there's no foreshadowing of the 'control freak' Clara we got this year.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:33
Koquillion
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Even though the effects don't hold up now. I actually found the original Cybermen walking in front of St. Paul's scene far more impressive than the version re-created last week.

I agree with sonicsocks says too about the design of the Cybermen. I found the Borg in Star Trek looked far more sinister as cyborgs go.
Oh, absolutely. It's not an iconic moment that will never be bettered for nothing. Plus, Invasion had the immortal line from the Doctor "Look, Jamie, sandwiches". Still makes me laugh every time I hear it.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:35
CAMERA OBSCURA
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After the excellent Dark Water I am not sure where to begin with Death in Heaven. I think about what I want to write but for some reason I am unable to get beyond 'an insulting, illogical, poorly plotted and written mess'

I found myself watching this episode as I would an episode of The Apprentice, mouth open at the sheer incompetence of it all, especially the excruciating, clichéd and wooden CyberDanny scenes. Awful.

Beyond Michelle Gomez stunning 'Im going to kill you in a minute' scene and Capaldi's Doctor smashing the crap out of the TARDIS console the rest was an absolute disaster on all levels.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:37
CD93
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I love that our so-called "old Doctor" has been so action hero

Nothing changes.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:38
Michael_Eve
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That's a good read. And what a great screen cap!

Seb: Squeeeeee!

Master (peed off, thinks) Won't bother with the say something nice routine this time. I'll just kill him."
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:38
Sara_Peplow
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Overall impressed with it 12 had his light bulb moment."I'm an idiot!". Missy was a great baddie somehow I doubt we have seen the last of her!. Poor Osgood and Danny.Brave and kind of him to sacrafice going back to Clara so the boy could return to life and his parents. Hope 12 and Clara have a good christmas. Thought the creatures in the railer looked a bit like the xenomorphs from Allien. 12 has teamed up with father christmas guess it will have extra jingle bells this year!. Look forward to it allready.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:42
quixoticduck
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The first half was ok, clever bits, but oh my god from the Danny reveal it just fell apart Last week, the first part promised so much but this week it was errrrrgh

I really really didn't like the rivers of blood in the morgue, not what I watch Who for, scared, creepy and mysterious, but not awash with blood
I thought it was the pollen/rain? I don't think blood was in the plot at all.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:50
quixoticduck
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Oh dammit. I didn't have time to edit my post. I should have said Cyberman, not Dalek.
I was looking at my mistake, even after you pointed it out to me, for a good twenty seconds before I facepalmed and realised my error.
I chuckled aloud a few times when I saw your error being pointed out. I kept stopping then thinking about it again and laughing. What is wrong with me?
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:02
quixoticduck
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But the Nethersphere itself, where the boy was shown to Danny was a computer-generated simulation running on a Galifreyan hard drive, which ultimately downloaded its "recordings" into re-animated corpses within Cybermen. They were all actually dead. Where did a real healthy small boy come from?
There's a problem if people get to choose whether they delete their emotions or not before cyber-conversion.
I wonder if the Cybermen spotted that flaw in the design of their efficiently planned cyber-conversion system?

It would be like the Army sending out all their troops to Afghanistan only to realise too late that they'd made an administrative error and all their soldiers had accidentally been equipped with plastic toy guns.
What's amazing about this is that The Cybermen themselves must have actually designed it so the victims could have an opt-out system where they can choose. How kind of the Cybermen is that?.

And if Danny can still keep his emotions after his emotions have been switched off, doesn't that kind of undermine the strength of love people had for loved ones in previous Cyberman stories? It's like saying that they couldn't have loved their families enough if they were converted.
I did wonder both of those things too, especially as most people are probably buried near their families, but I guess we didn't see every Cyberman. Maybe there were other Cybermen who also broke orders. Idk though, I don't like Cybermen having feelings. It made sense at first with Danny as he hadn't deleted his feelings but post-inhibitor Danny and the Brig don't to me.
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:16
JohnnyForget
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Where's the poll?
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:19
Koquillion
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Explained at the end of the episode in the Christmas preview...'North'

I do wish people would watch properly before asking daft questions...
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:21
Straker
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Spot on Jimbo, I absolutely agree with the sentiments in your post.
I've been a big fan for 41 of my 47 years, and I have always enjoyed Doctor Who.
I'm not shallow, not a sheep, not a Moffat boot-licker, I'm a regular person who generally enjoys a generally enjoyable TV programme.

I genuinely can't see what people get out of ripping each episode apart and finding fault with everything. It's not like your views will change anything. The programme is made, finished, broadcast - Moffat isn't going to re-edit the thing just to satisfy rabid angry fans. How negative, how miserable, how empty are these people's lives if they want to spend hours and hours painstakingly picking apart a TV show that mostly gives enjoyment to millions across the world. Yes, discussion can be fascinating, but posts saying things like "That Was Crap" add nothing to this forum, and achieve nothing either, other than satisfying the poster's ego. If you think it was crap at least have the sense to back up your point of view.

Yes, there are always faults, in everything we see and do, every day of the year. Nothing is perfect.

But Doctor Who is a lovingly made programme, helmed by dedicated and passionate people and it appeals to people young and old, worldwide. I can't think of a single other TV programme with such a vast appeal as Doctor Who, and I'm proud to be a fan of this show.

And I'm disappointed by the extreme negativity and hatred directed at the show by some people who claim to be fans. I genuinely don't understand why, if you hated something so much, you'd masochistically put yourself through the sheer torture of watching every week. There's hundreds of TV shows I don't like, but I don't waste my life bitching about them on internet forums. I simply don't watch. I really cannot understand the need for some 'fans' to put themselves through hell each week and then bring down everyone who's enjoyed the show by their constant moaning.
Please, find something constructive to do with your lives.

Five whole paras criticising the critics for criticising, namecalling them "moaning, miserable, empty, bitching, negative masochists". Irony fans are LOVING that!

What you missed in your spittle-flecked rant is that most who loathed this finale were big fans of previous eps in this latest series. But to recognise that light and shade negates your polarised either/or stance doesn`t it?
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:21
solarpenguin
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But the Nethersphere itself, where the boy was shown to Danny was a computer-generated simulation running on a Galifreyan hard drive, which ultimately downloaded its "recordings" into re-animated corpses within Cybermen. They were all actually dead. Where did a real healthy small boy come from?
Hmmm... Missy's bracelet is probably based on Gallifreyan tech, and the Galifreyan Matrix hard drive is definitely based on it. We already know that Gallifreyan tech can turn data into physical objects and vice versa (e.g. the TARDIS interior.)

So the bracelet created the living physical body for the virtual reality boy in the hard drive. However, the bracelet must've been configured specifically for Missy's body pattern (it was mentioned in dialogue that she used it to transfer herself physically in and out of the virtual reality) and so that's probably why it could only be used once to create a body for someone else.

(The other possibility is that it was a faulty bracelet, like the TARDIS's faulty chameleon circuit, and when the Master tried to transfer himself out of the sphere after his first visit, he was as surprised as anyone to find that he was now in a woman's body! )
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:24
Koquillion
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Five whole paras criticising the critics for criticising, namecalling them "moaning, miserable, empty, bitching, negative masochists". Irony fans are LOVING that!

What you missed in your spittle-flecked rant is that most who loathed this finale were big fans of previous eps in this latest series. But to recognise that light and shade negates your polarised either/or stance doesn`t it?
Aye up, the paragraph police are out again...

Loved your 'runny dead dog poo' post BTW!!
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:30
solarpenguin
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I genuinely can't see what people get out of ripping each episode apart and finding fault with everything. It's not like your views will change anything. The programme is made, finished, broadcast - Moffat isn't going to re-edit the thing just to satisfy rabid angry fans. How negative, how miserable, how empty are these people's lives if they want to spend hours and hours painstakingly picking apart a TV show that mostly gives enjoyment to millions across the world. Yes, discussion can be fascinating, but posts saying things like "That Was Crap" add nothing to this forum, and achieve nothing either, other than satisfying the poster's ego. If you think it was crap at least have the sense to back up your point of view.

Yes, there are always faults, in everything we see and do, every day of the year. Nothing is perfect.

But Doctor Who is a lovingly made programme, helmed by dedicated and passionate people and it appeals to people young and old, worldwide. I can't think of a single other TV programme with such a vast appeal as Doctor Who, and I'm proud to be a fan of this show.

And I'm disappointed by the extreme negativity and hatred directed at the show by some people who claim to be fans. I genuinely don't understand why, if you hated something so much, you'd masochistically put yourself through the sheer torture of watching every week. There's hundreds of TV shows I don't like, but I don't waste my life bitching about them on internet forums. I simply don't watch. I really cannot understand the need for some 'fans' to put themselves through hell each week and then bring down everyone who's enjoyed the show by their constant moaning.
Please, find something constructive to do with your lives.
You've not spent much time exploring the rest of the Digital Spy Forums then. The Doctor Who board is restrained and cheerful compared to all the bitterness and hatred on some of the the reality TV forums.
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