Yeah, it really does.

Oh gawd. Don't start trying to make sense of it.

It's impossible. People have different perceptions about what they want from watching doctor who. Plenty are going to be dissatisfied, and plenty happy. It's when very few are happy and most consistently dissatisfied or bored that it becomes a problem, and the show is nowhere near that.

Well, if you're ready. That's what everyone's been waiting for.

Massively fulfilling life you must have there.

She could time travel to Danny before he died. She could time travel to the future and get pregnant by one of the descendants. She could go back in time and get pregnant by one of his ancestors. She could meet someone else that looks like him. Maybe Orson wasn't her descendent. In a fictional show, about time travel. There's lots of possible explanations.

Hmmm, I suppose that's vaguely plausible.

I guess you could have something like the set-up that was in The Library , whereby consciousnesses would be stored in some virtual world and told it's in heaven until it's time to download them back into cybermen.

Course, why you'd bother to do that, rather than just leaving them dormant until you needed them, is anybody's guess.
Maybe you need to keep a consciousness "awake" for it to keep working?

And quite how you beam a real-live human being back from a virtual world, complete with newly-resurrected physical body, is anybody's guess too.


Might make a good story for the next series if DW discovers that The Master had been using The Library mainframe to store all those people and somehow manages to revive a heap of them.

You don't need god to save you. You can save yourself by not watching the episode.

I'd say it's because it's the protocol they are supposed to follow in an emergency. And once on board, the doctor becomes in charge. Protocol.

Exactly what I was trying to say except I couldn't remember the word "Protocol"


In fact wasn't Protocol why they were on the original Valiant when Saxon/Master killed the President and took over?


More TV less academic reading

The usual Dr Who nonsense but quite entertaining.I've never taken it too seriously but
watched since 1963 and regularly re-visit the classic Dr's.Perhaps that's why the introduction of the Brig as a cyberman I found not nice at all.

I would still like an answer to this, if one of the 'make it up on the spot' brigade would oblige, this is the problem with Moffat, lazy writing we have to guess and fill so much in ourselves

OK, they were not being lured to the promised land. They had absorbed human superstitions and beliefs due to the incorporation of organics into their operating systems. As they had no real termination date and could live virtually forever, they mistook the human belief in the afterlife (seeded or embellished throughout human history by The Mastress) as a real place they could go to and this became the point of their otherwise meaningless existence.

Classic who was never nonsense
It is awesome

Its a way of keeping him alive in the lore and a good way to give him one last hoorah

I voted 'Average'; didn't love it, didn't hate it.

However, I've been disappointed in the series (and arc) in general, after what I thought was a top notch opening episode - for me, no subsequent episode even came close to it.

As for the finale... wasn't a fan of Missy at all, either the character or the way she was portrayed. The Cybermen never felt threatening at any point. Danny was badly served; despite what many people posted on here, I always found him interesting, and hoped he was going to continue into S9 (I suppose that's still possible). UNIT / Kate / Osgood, I wanted them to have more to do (poor Osgood).

What I did like: the Doctor and Clara. I like seeing them together on the screen, I like the way they interact, and I hope Jenna continues for at least the whole of S9.

Did saying kill the Belgians first when the programme was shown the day before Remembrance Sunday not disturb anyone else?

Really - because I don't have an answer to the question - or because you're scared that even your own stories have examples of plot holes and of stupid things going on?

UNIT follows pre-determined protocols for situations and follows them with military precision, not necessarily with brains, we have seen this in Doctor Who time and time again - in this case the protocol was to put the president of the earth onto a plane where all of earths leaders can listen to his orders. Thats how UNIT work, they have never been clever and usually need the Doctor to get them out of trouble. This is actually where most of the Doctor's anti-soldier rhetoric comes from - its not that he doesn't like soldiers its just that time and time again he has seen their idea of dealing with an enemy is get a big gun and go and shoot it, they never try and use science or their brains to work things out. The one time they seem to let him be in control, it was just so he can give them orders, so he can be their military leader.

Take the Sontarem Strategem, Jo Nakashima discovers there is something fishy with ATMOS, but she still gets in her car and allows ATMOS to navigate her, she informs UNIT and then ofcourse ATMOS navigates her to her death. Meanwhile, all of UNITs' jeeps and vehicles use ATMOS, despite the evidence UNIT refuse to remove the ATMOS units because they haven't yet seen proof of the problem with their own eyes and don't put their brains together to work it out for themselves, leading to more loss of life.

In The Invasion, UNIT and the Doctor come across the Cybermen. The Doctor is an expert, he discovers that their is a master control signal which if they can knock out will win the fight. UNIT don't care and don't listen, they just want to use the most powerful nuclear missile to blow up the Cybermen, thats the only protocol the military types in UNIT understood. The plan while works temporarily is actually stupid again - why don't UNIT listen. By using a bomb to attack, the Cybermen retaliate and ready their mega-bomb and threaten to blow up earth.

In last weekends finale, UNIT again were just predictable. Missy phoned them in advance and told them there would be loads of cybermen in London, thus preparing her own capture. She knew UNIT would be stupid, would not realise that her new cybermen could fly and would just follow the same rigourous protocols of sticking them on a plane rather than adapting to the situation. Heck, even if they went on a boat, or a submarine, it just wouldn't matter, she had a homing beacon. These humans were just stupid to her and they proved it. Bye Bye humans, look at my shiny machines is what she thought.


This is Doctor Who buddy, the stories have always had problems or examples of stupid decisions - many times its deliberate and part of the character. But you know what, be like the UNIT people, be the person who can't think it all through yourself and just cry about it and make a fuss about how bad Mr. Moff is.

Doctor Who 1963 - 1989 was generally awesome, but even the staunchest fan would surely admit that sometimes it was a bit nonsense too...
And 21st century Who follows that grand tradition. Sometimes amazing, sometimes a bit silly. That's Doctor Who.

Not me, no. There's no need to create a link between real life and fiction where one doesn't exist, Remembrance Sunday had no bearing on this show.

I'm glad the poll was delayed this time.

I hated the finale on first viewing but watching it again the following morning it all seemed to come together and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I changed from a 2/10 to 8/10

Always Be Rewatching.

It was a joke from an evil character in a fictional TV show. Nothing whatsoever to do with Remembrance Sunday. Seems like another example of people trying hard to find controversy where there is none at all.

That's really interesting and it mirrors my view of the show at the moment.
I've found that while I've generally enjoyed most of this series, the first viewing has frequently left me feeling a little underwhelmed. But a second watch has usually improved my opinion and enjoyment, sometimes very considerably.

The problem with this is that while that's fine for me, a fan who'll happily watch the show multiple times, Doctor Who should surely be most effective on first viewing, to capture and hold the attention of the 'casual viewer'.
This, I feel, is where Moffat's tenure as show runner has partly failed. For me, most Moffat era stories improve with a second viewing, but surely they should primarily impress the audience on first showing, with extra detail and little touches becoming apparent on repeat.

Before this episode how many times have you seen a Cyberman fly?

Perhaps Missy has been watching the Ironman movies.