SQUEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

Zzapp!!

Damn, I laughed my head off at that!


(Well, that was a deep & meaningful 8,000th post!)

[quote=adams66;75557985]It was a joke from an evil character in a fictional TV show. Nothing whatsoever to do with Remembrance Sunday. Seems like another example of people trying hard to find controversy where there is none at all.[/QUOTE]

I never do that.

Not at all no, in fact I think it's a ridiculous statement.

I thought the episode was great up until Missy landed with her umbrella. I had a real issue with the whole build up of the unbeatable cybermen army just for Missy to give them to the Doctor. It is becoming Moffatts trademark, the big build up just for an anticlimax ridiculous ending. I do not believe that the Master would go to so much trouble just to 'make a point.' I don't want the villians to 'make a point' I want them to provide a genuine threat and make the Doctor actually do something to save the world.

And then as everybody has said, the whole 'love conquers all' rubbish just ruined it. Disappointed with Moffatt in regard to this, I really thought he was better than that ending.

Well I watched it and voted excellent. The acting was top notch and I warmed to Missy being the Master (my view is he is stealing bodies again a la classic Master due to running out of regens) at least Missy wasn't as awful as the last one (which I cannot bear to watch any episode he was in) and was much more in tune to a more sinister Master of old.

Peter was just excellent and the writing was on top form. Loved the way UNIT hijacked Missys plans. I was screaming at the telly during that bit saying "stupid people! It's the cybermen! run! Stop taking selfies!" but it was UNIT. Hurrah!!

I admit I blubbed... I blubbed hard at the Doctor saluting the Brigadier.. so many feels...

I'm also very glad it was more character driven than bayplosions everywhere, thank you for that Moffat.

I can understand why Pink sent the boy back instead of himself. He found a way to redeem himself even in death and the issue with the boy coming back all those years later won't need much explaining after all people rose from the dead as tin people for gawds sake all over the world!!

Danny the tin man got his heart back.

It's very strange but I couldn't STAND Clara when she was with Matt Smith but I will actually miss her. As Missy said, the controlling girl partnered with a man who hates being controlled.

And why are people moaning about Father Christmas??! Swimming fish and sharks in the atmosphere and keeping people in status for money are o.k but not Father Christmas trying to save the North Pole?! Seriously people... it's a family show, what is more family and christmassy than Father Christmas on Christmas day?

I do not ridicule anyone's view nor opinion.

What do you do then?

Well we know Moffat has been watching Marvel movies in general. I lost count of the number of ideas and themes he ripped off previous superhero films. I wondered if the whole thing was a rather pathetic pitch to Hollywood as obviously he's going to be thinking of his post-Who career (and won't that be a moment to celebrate).

I don't think it needs to be made up. Missy was 'collecting' people with an insight and experience of the Doctor. Also, to be taken there they had consciousness, so they could have been used as 'spares' for extra bodies that Missy missed collecting the 'original' for.


When pointed out on here (I missed that) yes it did, as does the whole soldier arc of the series ending that particular weekend really...it's still been the best since series 5 for me, and probably the second best series after 4 (resolution aside).


I've found that increasingly so with Moffat's series, and for this one it's been absolutely essential. The last two though I thoroughly enjoyed first time, but they too benefit from repeated viewings.


Also spot on for me. I've rewatched most episodes multiple times, usually within days, since Tennant hit his stride in series 3, but then I'm a fan. Folk like my Dad just watch once, and he loved the show until series 5/6. He still watches but usually says he didn't like it that much and/or didn't understand the plot.

We both enjoyed most RTD eps (Dad even enjoyed the ones I thought were dreadful like VotD!).

A number of episodes this series I've thought were bad or even dreadful on first viewing but came to really appreciate after rewatching (most notably Into the Dalek - though that could have been sound issues on my first watch - and, yes, In the Forest of the Night).

I think it's a big problem for some casual viewers whilst as a fan and 'rewatcher' I've loved this series as a whole :/

Why? What was the point? Missy knows the Doctor better than anyone else anyway (in her mind at least).

Do we? Is he?

Hollywood? Hmmm, he dropped Hollywood for the Who gig.

Who do you fancy to take over?

I'm starting to get the feeling from your posts that you're not overly keen on Steven Moffat.

Indeed. And now his BBC 'gig' is nearly over he'll be thinking about what he can do next.

I neither know or care who will replace him on the show. Whoever it is can hardly be worse.

She was watching his current movements throughout the series, so getting eyewitnesses is one option.

Being involved with the Doctor she's obsessed with, albeit indirectly and behind the scenes until her plan was ready to be hatched, is another.

Psychopaths collect 'trophies' is a third.

If you don't like those there's the other explanation I gave...

it seems you can't have an opinion without being lumped into a brigade these days. here's my opinion so please let me know which brigade i'm in.

overall i thought it was a good episode, but average in terms of a finale in bringing together the themes/storyline of the whole season.

the actual episode was fast paced and had plenty of excitement, with a lot of references to old who which i often feel a little jarring. in terms of spectacle it is as good as anything you'll find in a UK drama, the jump into the tardis i thought worked really well (aside from the squeel comment from the weird fella). i didn't like any of the danny/clara bits at the cemetry until the doctor showed up as it seemed to took all momentum out of the show.

as a finale i found it lacking as it didn't necessarily pay off the constant referencing of the missy character and her plan for the dead from across the series. if you had gone back and removed those bits from past episodes then i think some of those individual episodes would have been improved without any negative impact on this episode.

the real arc was the doctor "am i good man?" theme, and the conflict that the power of making decisions can have a negative impact on somebody. this i think would have worked better if it took him longer than 3 seconds to decide that he didn't want an army of cybermen to do good with - as an aside i think you could draw an interesting parallel with matt smith/peter capaldi doctor and the Tony Blair

missy was brilliant and the acting all round very good - i hope she comes back again.

That's probably the most reckless thing one could ever say regarding the showrunner position. Of course they can be worse! Generally, Moffat's maintained the show's popularity since 2005 to a very good degree. People keep talking about for good or for bad. It's in the public eye, and is generally pretty well-regarded. Not to mention the show's ratings are always second only to Strictly and X-Factor. Not to mention it has made millions if not close to a billion for the BBC.

DW is a delicate property. His successor could easily come along and make some completely stupid moves, and ruin it in the eyes of the MAJORITY.

Don't forget, people said the exact same thing about Davies in 2009, proclaiming Moffat to be the saviour and the one who would take Doctor Who up to new heights - now look what's happened. The Rose tinted spectacles and the angry mob is out.

This is happened to all sorts of franchises. Star Wars, Star Trek, Terminator... list could go on.

The bottom line is in Television and movies, things can always be a hell of a lot worse. And it is an absolute inevitability that people in a few years will be saying "Bring back Moffat", regardless of who the next one will be and what they bring to the table.

I haven't read the thread yet so apologies if this has all been covered.


On the plus side, I liked the drama, the action, the effects, the performances, the return of UNIT and some familiar faces, the idea of making the Doctor President of Earth and I loved the idea of the return of the Brigadier.

On the negative side, the Doctor was not the one who saved the day. He seemed to be mostly ineffectual throughout the episode, even when made President of Earth he seemed totally out of control of events. He should have, at the very least, ensured that Missy was properly secured and had no devices on her. He should have been scanning the clouds from within his TARDIS, whipping up weapons or defensive devices, interrogating Missy… The only thing he did was tell Clara not to turn off Danny's inhibitor only to recant and decide that she needed to shortly thereafter. Apart from providing the sonic for Clara to use, he served no useful purpose in the episode at all!

I'm never a fan of having likeable characters die so it's a shame they felt they had to go there.

Missy's plan was just bonkers. I can accept that because I think that the Master has been getting more and more bonkers over time and rational thought just seems to no longer apply but it's not the most satisfying scenario when the bad guy's plans make no sense:

Apparently she hooked him up with Clara because they were opposites. Not sure what that achieved?

She tried to kill him and his friends but her aim for everything she was doing was to rekindle their previous friendship by showing him they were similar and to provide him with an army?

I don't really get it, I have to say!

Plus, once again, it seems to be another episode continuing the recent theme of thoroughly preposterous events which barely pay lip-service to the idea of any kind of credible, consistent or believable science. For example:

1) How could the "water" from the rain build entire Cyberman exo-skeletons around the corpses out of nothing but soil? Where did the metal come from and all the other elements needed? If it's matter conversion surely it would require vast amounts of energy to achieve? That kind of magical science would seem to preclude the need for any kind of army at all. You could just wipe out any race by transforming them and their equipment into water and earth, why bother with Cybermen?
2) Why do they need the corpses at all? If the consciousness used to animate them is being downloaded from the Nethersphere and the body is being animated by machinery (it certainly wouldn't be by muscle) then what possible use are the corpses inside the shells?
3) Why do they even need the consciousnesses at all? Why not just use AI or, for that matter, just download the same consciousness multiple times?
4) It seems that each consciousness was targeted to animate its own corpse but, why? What difference if it matches a corpse or not? Also, if it is supposed to match an existing corpse then what's the point of collecting consciousnesses from the future? There won't be a corpse for it to go into!
5) It seems that it was Danny's refusal to Delete his emotions which resulted in the inhibitor not being activated but, why leave such a thing to chance? Why not just inhibit them as a matter of course, why give them the choice? Plus why not consider the possibility that someone wouldn't do it by choice? Why weren't there far more of them being independent and why was that even allowed?
6) I don't buy that the inhibitor didn't inhibit Danny after it was turned on. What's so special about Danny as opposed to the millions of others who suddenly seem to be ok with the idea of committing genocide on their entire race? Either the inhibitor inhibits emotion or more people should have been resistant to it.

After all that, I still voted Good. I enjoyed it at the time and a lot of the problems only occurred to me later but it could never be wholly satisfying with so much lack of credibility.

Well after last week's offering, which I thought was one of Moffat's best and dealt with some dark themes really skilfully for a family show, the second part was a massive let-down for me, and gave Moffat's detractors so much fuel it was ridiculous.

Minor things first - the Clara opening credits, which must in part be designed to wind certain sections of the fanbase up...so unnecessary, and the kind of thing that confuses the casual viewer with fake complexity that again is explained away minutes later. It was the kind of idea that should have stayed as a joke in a story meeting. To actually go through with it shows more vanity than humour.

The story itself, although Missy was deliciously evil for the most part, had too many moments where I found it impossible to suspend my disbelief...that RAIN (or 'cyber-pollen') covering a body can somehow almost instantly create a complex metal and electronic exoskeleton to just GROW and cover it...complete nonsense. But the final straw for me was the amazing coincidence that Kate Stewart, falling from a plane, is caught by her Cyberman father, who just happens to be in exactly the right place! Again, complete, eye-rolling twaddle, and a bit weird. Don't like the idea of the Brig being reanimated out of well-earned peaceful oblivion just to fix a pointless narrative issue.

The zombie Cybermen rising from the graves was a nice touch, as Danny's face was when he was unmasked. If only I cared about him (or Clara for that) as characters! I'm no RTD fanactic, or anti-Moffat type, but think back to the emotion behind Rose going at the end of Series 2, or Donna and Wilf in Series 4. I genuinely don't think, for all his talent, Moffat can pull those moments off.

This is based on one viewing, I'll be interested to see if a second watch lessens the disappointment for me...

My review
Having gone off TV quite a bit, I haven't watched this series very much, except "Deep Breath", "Listen", and this two-part finale. I should say I have always been a huge fan of Mr Moffat, even through Matt Smith's era, however I really did not like this offering. (I haven't read the thread, sorry.)

The one thing I did like about this episode was the opening sequence where Danny died and throwing the keys into the lava. That was excellent. But from there on it was all downhill for me.

There are far too many negative points to list. I could be here all day. Above all, I thought the main plot was terrible. Missy had potential as a character, but her plans were stupid, and they made her into a kind of magical fantasy character who could do anything and never seemed threatened by anything, with absolutely no vulnerabilities, either physical or emotional. Half the time people were just standing around waiting to get shot. It's not satisfying to see a villain who is smug to the end, even to the point of just patiently waiting for someone to shoot her.

Missy may as well have been a fairy. Nothing felt real and nothing mattered. A lot of Mr Moffat's stories have been like this lately, where you simply have no way to know what is going to happen because at any moment he'll change the rules, so you just kind of give up investing any kind of emotional interest in the story. Someone dies… someone comes to life… someone dies. Moffat can change anything at any moment so who cares? It's just a sequence of things happening. It bears more in common with a theme park ride than a story, like: "wooo, look at this scene" and "wow, now this is happening". But all these events are just floating around loosely and randomly instead of being bolted down together onto the foundation of a solid storyline.

Then, (as must have been said) a lot about the episode seemed very familiar. People's deceased loved ones becoming Cybermen. Dead people being "saved" in a computer simulation. Familiar character becomes a "good cyberman" who saves the day. And so on.

And for the record I still hate the new Cybermen, they're just a bunch of simple, clunky, air-headed easy targets whose purpose is to get blown up—when they should be intelligent, sinister foes who hatch dastardly schemes and drive the story forwards. But once again they're just there to look pretty, do nothing, then die.

I never liked Clara (or Danny, from what little I saw of him). Clara was yet another bossy, angry, stuck-up companion, and Danny seemed lobotomised. Pretty much another masculine, dominant female + submissive male (like Amy and Rory). The Doctor needs to find some pleasant, respectful people to travel with so the stories can be more about him and not about the outbursts of his whiny, insolent companions. His companions have been graciously granted the privilege of accompanying him through time and space—they should not be telling him to shut up and do as he's told. He should kick them off the TARDIS for speaking so rudely to him. I would. I think he needs more discipline and respect on his TARDIS. A companion can speak her mind from time to time and express disagreement, but she should always love and respect the Doctor with loyalty and obedience, that is kind of the point of having companion characters. I say bring back Martha (or Ace).

I do like Capaldi. I just wish his Doctor was a touch more confident. I know it's deliberate but he seems markedly less sure of himself than previous Doctors, making him seem more human than timelord.

good catch !

my question is - did Clara ever see Missy use it to zap anyone ? how did she know what the correct way to hold it was ?
the doctor of course did know the correct way to point it , he'd seen missy use it .

I sort of agree with you here. Lack of respect and arrogance is the reason I don't like Clara. Amy always had faith in the doctor (as did Martha) that he would save the day, Clara seems to lack this quality hence the reason she is incredibly annoying.

So Clara's speach to Cyber-Danny, when she didn't know it was Danny, the one where she said she trusted the Doctor, best friend, etc etc, she was lying? And the speach back in Deep Breath, where she said he'd always have her back, and save her, that was lying too?

Confirmation bias.

I thought she was trying to bluff her way out as earlier when she claimed to be the doctor after all she thought he was just another cyberman.

Not necessarily lying, though that seems to be her default setting, but what she said about how much she trusted him etc hasn't always been borne out by what we've seen this series.

Voted excellent on the basis that the writing this season has been pretty consistent and the stories were better plotted, a very good season and well done to the cast,crew and writers for making the show must see again.

It could be argued that Clara has been given reason to not totally have faith in the Doctor. She's had a much more independent/ abandoned by the Doctor story arc this season. He's failed to save the day on a number of occasions and she's had to do it herself. She also knows him far deeper than any of his other companions - except maybe Susan and Romana. If there is arrogance and a certain toughness it's earned.

Personally I think that's been great for the character.

Fantastic work this series,and quite daring to give the Doctor time out to question his own identity after a disorientating regeneration.
At the end of the series he is stronger and the wiser for it.
That expression on Capaldi's face during the hug was extraordinary,saying so much in one look;love,loss,loneliness,pain.
It illustrates the point he made earlier,that pain and suffering is important. It makes humans human instead of machines or metal men or monsters.
And thats the battle that is always at the heart of Doctor Who.
Thanks for this series. Its been courageous.


I just wish they hadnt shown that brash christmas advert immediately after the episode because it broke the spell.