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Doctor Who - S8E12 - Death in Heaven - 8th Nov '14 - BBC One (HD) @ 8:00pm


View Poll Results: What did you think of the episode?
Excellent 162 40.60%
Good 92 23.06%
Average 76 19.05%
Bad 36 9.02%
Poor 33 8.27%
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Old 11-11-2014, 09:13
johnnysaucepn
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If you prioritise plot intricacy over character, yes, I imagine you might come away disappointed.

Ironically, this is exactly what Moffat has been criticised for in the past. The guy just can't win.
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:14
Phoenix Lazarus
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It just stretched things too far, having a substance transported by rain that can turn a human corpse into a fully-formed cyberman. Why could you not have a string of funeral parlours & mortuaries that were secretly engineering the corpses? Much more believable. It shows how the series seems increasingly to be migrating from the territory of science into that of magic & myth.
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:17
Maxatoria
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It just stretched things too far, having a substance transported by rain that can turn a human corpse into a fully-formed cyberman. Why could you not have a string of funeral parlours & mortuaries that were secretly engineering the corpses? Much more believable. It shows how the series seems increasingly to be migrating from the territory of science into that of magic & myth.
well the borg in startrek can seem to do it and convert people over a short time so in sci fi its not an unheard of idea but under current knowledge of physics i'd say its pretty much impossible just like time travel
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:44
Phoenix Lazarus
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If the Master was genuinely vaporised, I'll eat my hat. Of course he/she lived to fight another day.
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Old 11-11-2014, 13:30
Adam Law
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Stupid question, did we ever find out who Dr Skorosa was?
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Old 11-11-2014, 13:51
ProfMarius
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Stupid question, did we ever find out who Dr Skorosa was?
My money's on the Rani.
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Old 11-11-2014, 14:05
Thrombin
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well the borg in startrek can seem to do it and convert people over a short time so in sci fi its not an unheard of idea but under current knowledge of physics i'd say its pretty much impossible just like time travel
That's a cop out, though. Just because you have to suspend your disbelief a little to accept certain sci-fi elements doesn't mean that anything goes. There is a line and the series has been crossing it more and more.

The Borg convert people through the use of materials and implants they have already manufactured. They are not creating super-strong metallic exo-skeletons and complicated circuitry out of thin air (or earth and soil, in this case).

Even the replicators of Star Trek are assumed to be converting energy into matter using the power of a warp engine to fuel them.

The worst part, though, is not whether it is possible it is the fact that once you make something like that possible, why even bother? If you can turn corpses into cybermen you can turn anything into cybermen. You don't need the corpses at all. In fact, you don't even need an army of cybermen you just need the rain and you can conquer any race (including the Daleks) with one hand tied behind your back! If the Time Lords had that kind of technology what possible threat could even the Daleks have been?
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Old 11-11-2014, 14:08
Thrombin
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It just stretched things too far, having a substance transported by rain that can turn a human corpse into a fully-formed cyberman. Why could you not have a string of funeral parlours & mortuaries that were secretly engineering the corpses? Much more believable. It shows how the series seems increasingly to be migrating from the territory of science into that of magic & myth.
My feelings exactly. They just seem to be sacrificing credibility for spectacle, lately, and I really wish they'd stop going so over the top.
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Old 11-11-2014, 14:27
mikey1980
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My feelings exactly. They just seem to be sacrificing credibility for spectacle, lately, and I really wish they'd stop going so over the top.
Lately??

What about the Tardis towing the earth back in series 4? There are many examples of spectacle over so-called credibility throughout the RTD era. Nothing has changed.
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Old 11-11-2014, 14:42
Kapellmeister
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My feelings exactly. They just seem to be sacrificing credibility for spectacle, lately, and I really wish they'd stop going so over the top.
Unfortunately, spectacle at the expense of sense has been a hallmark of the show since 2005. I fully admit that new Who has never really worked for me but I think the problem now is that the RTD template is showing its age and the whole new Who franchise is starting to smell more than a little stale.
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Old 11-11-2014, 15:01
adams66
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My money's on the Rani.
Naughty step! Now!!
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Old 11-11-2014, 15:18
ProfMarius
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Naughty step! Now!!
With pleasure

Seriously though, I do agree with Adam - what was the point of naming the character "Dr Skarosa"? More mischievous fan-baiting?

I was also curious about "Xylo Jones" - as far as I could tell, the only other Cyber-convert whose name plaque we saw on-screen.
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Old 11-11-2014, 15:20
Phoenix Lazarus
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Stupid question, did we ever find out who Dr Skorosa was?
what was the point of naming the character "Dr Skarosa"? More mischievous fan-baiting?

I was also curious about "Xylo Jones" - as far as I could tell, the only other Cyber-convert whose name plaque we saw on-screen.
Maybe to be revealed next series? 'Skarosa' possibly connected to the planet Skaro?
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Old 11-11-2014, 15:44
adams66
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With pleasure

Seriously though, I do agree with Adam - what was the point of naming the character "Dr Skarosa"? More mischievous fan-baiting?

I was also curious about "Xylo Jones" - as far as I could tell, the only other Cyber-convert whose name plaque we saw on-screen.
I think you're probably right. A name like that can only cause fans to go into theorising overdrive, and Moffat knows it. And, of course, it worked. And, we're still talking about it.
Moffat certainly knows how to generate debate and discussion, diatribes, dissension and other words with a D...
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Old 11-11-2014, 16:00
Grand Dizzy
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So Clara's speach […] where she said she trusted the Doctor, best friend, etc etc, she was lying?
Well words are one thing; attitude (and actions) are another. I'd rather have a friend who treated me with respect and never said nice things to me, than a friend who said nice things to me and treated me with disrespect.

As for Clara's speech to Danny, I thought that was an attempt to tell if he was the real Danny, why else would she speak so positively about the Doctor at that moment?
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Old 11-11-2014, 17:14
allen_who
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If the Master was genuinely vaporised, I'll eat my hat. Of course he/she lived to fight another day.
My money is on vaporisation gun transported missy to those coordinates and she tricked the doc into retrieving her.. she now hidden in tardis
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Old 11-11-2014, 19:10
haphash
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It could be argued that Clara has been given reason to not totally have faith in the Doctor. She's had a much more independent/ abandoned by the Doctor story arc this season. He's failed to save the day on a number of occasions and she's had to do it herself. She also knows him far deeper than any of his other companions - except maybe Susan and Romana. If there is arrogance and a certain toughness it's earned.
That's what is wrong with this season. The companion should not be more important than the doctor. Although of course it could be argued that he left things up to her for a reason and would have come in to save the day if she messed up.
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Old 11-11-2014, 19:20
Granny McSmith
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I think you're probably right. A name like that can only cause fans to go into theorising overdrive, and Moffat knows it. And, of course, it worked. And, we're still talking about it.
Moffat certainly knows how to generate debate and discussion, diatribes, dissension and other words with a D...
Disappointment, depression, despair, derision.....
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Old 11-11-2014, 19:45
Corwin
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The Borg convert people through the use of materials and implants they have already manufactured. They are not creating super-strong metallic exo-skeletons and complicated circuitry out of thin air (or earth and soil, in this case).
IIRC Conversion to a Borg was done with Nanoprobes (certainly in Voyager if not Next Gen) just like the Cybermen are now doing.
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Old 11-11-2014, 20:41
Evil Genius
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That was deliciously dark stuff. Michelle Gomez was brilliant, totally twisted and manipulative. Terrific performance by Capaldi. The end scene between The Doctor and Clara was poignant.

I'm kind of going to ignore The Brig as a Cyberman thing, because I really didn't like it.
That's an understatement to me. I bloody hated it. I found it highly disrespectful to a much loved character to have his remains turned into one of the things he fought so hard against.

Moffatt had written a nice, sweet little line a couple of years ago allowing the Brigadier to fade away and for his passing to be felt keenly by The Doctor.

And then Moff has his body bastardised by the Cybermen & Missy and his consciousness reactivated and he thinks that's a fitting tribute?
Remind him never to ask him to read the eulogy at my funeral if I pop off in the next few years.
I've defended you many times over the years ignored some of the more nonsensical things you've done, but after this? F**k off Moff.
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Old 11-11-2014, 21:08
nanscombe
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So no-one would have asked ...

"If all the corpses were being turned into Cybermen, what about The Brigadier?"

At least Kate Stewart knew her father hadn't become a mindless Cyberman but had saved her and fought on until the end.

What was the fate of all the other dead human companions of the Doctor?
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Old 11-11-2014, 22:10
The_Judge_
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Well words are one thing; attitude (and actions) are another. I'd rather have a friend who treated me with respect and never said nice things to me, than a friend who said nice things to me and treated me with disrespect.

As for Clara's speech to Danny, I thought that was an attempt to tell if he was the real Danny, why else would she speak so positively about the Doctor at that moment?
When Cyber Danny comes to St. Pauls to rescue Clara, Clara says "she's a great liar" to finally convince the Cybermen she is the Doctor and there never was a Clara Oswald. Cyber Danny nods his head slowly as if to say - don't I know that too well. Something he accused Clara of earlier in the series - lying about her adventures with the Doctor even though they were supposed to be in a relationship and she should be more honest with him.

When CyberDanny then meets Clara in the graveyard, remember Clara still doesn't know who this Cyberman is, she basically makes a statement about how important the Doctor is to her, more important than anyone else. Basically she is saying this to protect her ass, and make sure the Cyberman doesn't kill her. She is hoping that if the cyberman realises she is important to the Doctor, so she may be kept alive and used as bait.

Unfortunately it is Danny and he takes it the wrong way. He is already struggling to come to terms with the fact he is dead, trapped in a metal body, but now also the girl he loves says the only person important to her in the world is the Doctor - basically can someone just finish the job and pull out my emotions please - thats what Danny was thinking.
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Old 11-11-2014, 22:15
Benjamin Sisko
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So no-one would have asked ...

"If all the corpses were being turned into Cybermen, what about The Brigadier?"

At least Kate Stewart knew her father hadn't become a mindless Cyberman but had saved her and fought on until the end.

What was the fate of all the other dead human companions of the Doctor?
Cyber Adric! Now that would be a story.
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Old 11-11-2014, 22:43
doctor blue box
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If you prioritise plot intricacy over character, yes, I imagine you might come away disappointed.

Ironically, this is exactly what Moffat has been criticised for in the past. The guy just can't win.
Probably because back in the RTD days whether you liked the story or not, it always had a plot which explained itself fully in a way that made sense and answered any questions set out AND had good characterisation, and the fact that the Moffat era often has stories where one is lacking in favour of the other is why some of us brought to the show in 2005 feel it is often lacking now to what it had previously been.
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Old 11-11-2014, 23:16
nanscombe
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Cyber Adric! Now that would be a story.
However, that would be unlikely since he had been dead for 26 million years and his body was probably vaporised as the spaceship crashed into the Earth anyway.



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