I've read on the ringers thread that Mark Wright went to this stage school. I think anyone who knows a bit about the Sylvia Young stage school will be aware that it's not just an after school drama club - but a full time stage school with a curriculum that covers all aspects of the performing arts (ie singing, dancing and acting).

So my query is why are the producers emphasising that Mark is a 'novice' when he spent 10 years at this stage school? I presume he had to attend the dance classes in this school.....so if he did then he's hardly a dance 'novice'!

I felt I had to start this thread because all the female frontrunners are being hauled over the coals for their experience.....yet there's been very little said about Mark's training in the media.......it just seems to me to be a glaring double standard and the producers are being highly disingenuous in giving him 'novice' status - which will be an advantage for him beause 'novices' are generally looked on more favourably by voters than 'ringers'. They did the same with a contestant last year and now they're doing it this year with Mark. I'm at the point where I'm getting tired off it. I don't mind it being stated about a contestant who is a genuine novice, but I think it stinks when you look into a contestants background and I find out it's not exactly true.

I'm going to pretty much copy and paste my reply from the other thread you've brought this topic up in already.

The simple answer is you're over-simplifying it. Whether someone's had training (stage school/after-school dance club or whatever) long in their past often makes very little difference as to how good they'll be at ballroom and Latin.

The difference between Mark and Pixie/Frankie/Caroline is how recent their experiences are - Caroline has fairly recent ballroom and Latin experience, and Frankie and Pixie spend their day jobs dancing, so obviously their muscle memory is going to be far more attuned to dancing than Mark, who's had years as a footballer and years working in TV/radio since his stage school days. Same with anyone - I learnt to dance during my schooldays, then had years of not doing it, so when I came back to dance and started learning ballroom & Latin I struggled just as much as someone who'd never danced before.

If you want to label someone who had dance experience as a child a 'ringer', then you're probably attaching that label to at least half the celebs, if not practically all of them. Whether experience is truly relevant or beneficial right here right now is much more complicated than a simple "have they ever, at any point in the life, had any kind of dance or movement training."

And it all depends on public perception too - pretty much everyone knows Frankie and Pixie are pop stars, and have seen them dance during their performances, so it's no surprise that people think they've got an advantage. Fewer people know about Dancing on Wheels, so Caroline's less criticised when really she should be more so! And fewer people again know about Sylvia Young and what it entails (no-one really knew Kara had similar training), so Mark gets even less criticism. But at the end of the day they've all got experience, as have many other celebs who've done Strictly this year and in the past, it just has varying degrees of relevance.

At the end of the day - if he spent so much of his youth training in the performing arts - 10 years - then he's hardly a dance 'novice' though, I don't care whether he didn't do Latin or Ballroom - the training would come in handy for something like strictly -the producers are practically bigging him up as someone who's never danced before in their life who's having miraculous transformation into a dancer on strictly - which is rubbish!

Yes to everything Mystical123 said.

And an add on - usually, the only competitors with no dance training or experience are the sports people, and they (usually) have higher than average fitness levels (depending on how long as they retired) awesome bodies and perhaps most useful of all, are used to saying 'yes, whatever you say' to a coach, training for extremely long periods, and are very competitive.

I need Monkseal's superior knowledge, but it seems to me that during the history of SCD, more sports background people statistically do better than 'ringahs'.

Take a simple thing like the butterfly Bruno highlighted as Wonderful for one who has never danced before.

No matter what type of dancing,, he will have been taught that, and hence has not learnt a brand new skill.

It is many many years sine I did any sort of dance, but I know the mechanics of that move and were my knees and ankle not shot I could probably still do it.

As Bruno informed us in last night's results show, "this guy has never danced before". So I can only conclude that during his 10 years at Sylvia Young he had a note from his mum.

Mystical - well said

I agree with Topaz in that I have heard a lot more said about Pixie and Frankie's dance background compared to other contestants and IMO this is unfair. If you look at all of this years competitors you could find some theatre/dance background (however minimal) with all of them. It's just frustrating that the same thing comes up each and every year as by the end of the series it matters very little.

That's because the Ringahs come third - or this year 2nd to 4th.

On dance-ability as opposed to SCD win-ability, musicality is far more important than fitness. Heck it is a 60 second dance each week plus 30 seconds faffin abaht. Not exactly a marathon. I danced for four hours yesterday afternoon / evening.

Musicians will be able to feel the One beat in a bar in a song but few sports people could do that. Even Darren Gough was a rubbish dad dancer after winning and Michael Vaughn, Joe Calzaghe and Tony Jacklin were embarrassing.

What is increasing in SCD is the preponderance of lifts. While now fitter than I have been for decades I (suspect I) couldn't easily lift any of the pro women. Even 50 kg is a lot. A 12 pack of wine weights 16 kg. So that's more than four 12 packs of wine.

Exactly. It is really irritating that they are trying to pretend he is a novice when he isn't. Jake went to a drama school which was solely focused on acting, Mark didn't. It doesn't matter how long ago it was, he has danced before. So him getting off scott free and being dubbed a novice is unfair on the girls who have been criticised massively, and unfair on the viewers who are being lied too.

But clearly Mark is being set up as the journey contestant and will likely do better than superior dancers. Don't get me wrong, the last two weeks have been great, but it is unfair that people have decided point blank they won't enjoy anything Pixie does because she is a ringer yet they will praise Mark for doing something he has NEVER done before

They come 2nd to 4th, exactly! Which is why it doesn't make any difference if Scott went to Sylvia Young or not, in the long term

It's not the 90 secs performance though, it's the 5x 6-10 hour days a week where the sports people get the edge, especially as the seasons goes on and they pick up two dances. This is when (sadly) Sunetra and Jake may get tired this season. I hope not though!

Yes, but think of, Roger Black, Ramps, Louis, Denise, Colin Jackson, Matt Dawson, Austin Healey, etc, even Phil Tufnell made it to the midway point!

I'd love for someone to crunch the numbers properly but I really think statistically, sports background is a bigger advantage than youth training in dance. Possibly a phenomena restricted to Strictly (most adult beginners are more likely to have done tap/ballet at 5 years old than competed internationally at sport, obviously!)

Your observation on lifts Henry, is very, very astute. I may need to go purchase wine and experiment.

I had no idea Mark had been to stage school, it does alter my opinion slightly but only because he accepted the complements for someone 'who had never danced before'!

I agree ballroom dancing is different, so it is learning a new skill - but they should be honest about previous experience that could be helpful. Scott/Judy/Steve/Thom (Jake?) have never danced before - so that is different to Mark saying he hadn't!! He is not starting from the same point they were.

We have a few celebrities this year who have experience of one a sort or another and it dosn't bother me as long as they are up front and honest about it.

Exactly. All the others have been honest about it, but Mark doesn't correct anyone who says he is a novice. You have to remember, this guy comes from reality tv. He knows how to play the game. He was awful on TOWIE, cheating on his girlfriend, calling her fat, being awful to supposed best friends. This reinvention as sensitive, humble Mark doesn't wash with me but people seem to be fooled.

Do we know that Scott/Judy/Steve/Thom never danced before? I had no idea that Thom had been in a boy band. Steve studied Theatre Studies at University - he may have taken drama or some sort of performance module during his time there? They all might be closet Am Dram fanatics or pole dancers in their spare time. The fact is it would be rare to find anyone who has never danced or had been taught a dance routine at some time in their life.

He took the Joey Tribiani sad face and knuckle bite masterclass option instead ...

I think a lot of SCD folk will only know him from IACGMOOH, he came across well the, as I recall (the only programme I actually follow is Strictly though, and I don't actually own a TV, so what do I know )

I would have hard cash on the fact that neither Judy nor Scott had done more than a bit of a Dashing White Sargent in grubby plimsoles and a school hall, somehow.

Maybe, in future series, all the celebs should tell openly and honestly if and when they have had training/dance on a regular basis/danced as youngsters etc. Maybe it would give us a more rounded view on their overall achievements throughout the series.

Or would that just make us judge them more harshly?

The performing arts is much, much more than just dancing (and even then, the dancing there is far removed from ballroom/Latin dancing).

This comment comes up every year, doesn't it, about at least one or more of the contestants. Truth is probably 75% of them have had some dance training, even if it was only in the gym at primary school.

Singing and dancing is part of stage school training, but I've yet to know one that teaches ballroom or Latin dance. They tend to keep to a very generalised type of both that is largely aimed at Musical Theatre type work, for pretty obvious reasons! And not everyone takes either seriously if they want to concentrate on more serious acting. So the only real benefit to those who've attended stage school is that they will have learnt how to perform, and may have learnt poise and balance.

But the point is, if the show banned everyone who had attended stage school, then they would probably have to include those did children's ballet & tap lessons at the local church hall, etc., and that would make it very difficult to find any celebs at all. In fact, the show would end up with 14 or 15 varieties of Judy, Widdy, JS, etc.

I have no objection to ringers at all. I loved Natalie last year. Chelsee Healey was one of my favourites. I don't care if Frankie's mother is a ballroom dance teacher and I'm starting to enjoy Pixie since her samba and tango.

What I don't like is the DVOs (sat on a chair) or Marks (never danced before) because I don't like being lied to.

I don't think anyone is disputing that - just the use of the word 'novice' to describe someone who, well ... isn't.

And it is likely that most people who have come from an acting background (indeed, anyone from the expressive arts) will have at some point attended a stage school or studied drama & dance at secondary school.

Aggs quote: I would have hard cash on the fact that neither Judy nor Scott had done more than a bit of a Dashing White Sargent in grubby plimsoles and a school hall, somehow.

But surely he's a novice at ballroom dancing, which is what the show is about. or all we know Judy might have been doing Scottish country dancing since she learnt to walk.

But he is a novice when it comes to dancing ballroom and Latin!

I dance ballroom and Latin to - if I can say without boasting too much - to a pretty high standard, but if I wanted to try (say) Argentine Tango, I would be hopelessly lost - a real novice in fact.

Even Darcey, wonderful ballet dancer that she is, proved it isn't a case of being trained and wonderful at one type of dance means you can automatically be good at a different kind - as her disastrous 'Latin' routine with Ian proved!