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record deck and amp |
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#26 |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
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Get on Ebay, some great value Rega Planar 3 on there. Best turntable i ever owned, coupled with a Denon PMA350se amp and Mission 751 speakers. Sold it all to help pay for my wedding and regretted it ever since....
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#27 |
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If you have no interest in sound quality and don't care about the rusty nail that masquerades as a stylus on such cheap and nasty turntables ruining your record collection then a Lidl special will be ideal
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#28 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Nailsworth, Gloucestershire
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I think this is a contradiction. If the aim is to hear something as close to the master tape as possible, CD is better than vinyl - you just said so
![]() It's only in the world of "I've got used to the faults of vinyl - I like them - I don't want to hear something closer to the master tape or something that's closer to the original sound" that vinyl can compete. FWIW back when I used to listen to far more vinyl, I was far more tolerant of its faults. I haven't listened to vinyl much for about five years, and going back to it, I find the clicks and distortion far more annoying than I used to. This is even true for some digital recordings of vinyl, which are the exact same digital recordings I listened to before, so the sound itself hasn't changed at all - my expectations have. Cheers, David. For example I enjoy listening to vinyl, but I also enjoy CDs, MP3s, and FLAC because they are all formats for listening to audio recordings and for me that is all that matters. You are right that CD offers a superior sound quality, but these days the vast majority couldn't care less as long as they can cram 2 million MP3s ripped @ 64 kbit/s on to their iPhone. Quote:
Get on Ebay, some great value Rega Planar 3 on there. Best turntable i ever owned, coupled with a Denon PMA350se amp and Mission 751 speakers. Sold it all to help pay for my wedding and regretted it ever since....
Quote:
Exactly. the only problem with modern units is that they don't play 78s, but then you need a different stylus for them. Yes, I have got some 78's
This is their current product: Rega RP78. |
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#29 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cornwall (at last!)
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Always difficult to jump in on these discussions. I learned years ago that the CD v Vinyl debate is un-winnable.
Suffice to say that I have both, and enjoy both. The future (if there is such a thing for audio anymore) will be in high res audio - which CD certainly isn't. It has the greater dynamic range over LP's, but on a good day, with a decently mastered LP and playback system vinyl, far from being warm, has the frequency response to beat CD - which has a block filter at 20kHz. |
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#30 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Derbyshire
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It has the greater dynamic range over LP's, but on a good day, with a decently mastered LP and playback system vinyl, far from being warm, has the frequency response to beat CD - which has a block filter at 20kHz.
Each to their own, but measurements don't lie - CD is far more accurate (and longer lasting) than vinyl. |
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#31 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Agree completely with the comments re mastering -- this is where the recordings fall down as opposed to the formats per se.
I would go as far as to say that most recordings made in the last 20 years are unlistenable, due to the range compression that is employed. It is for this reason that some vinyl tends to sound better; the format is incapable of the dynamic range that digital formats have, and as a result the digital masters are abused to take advantage -- but when it came to pressing the vinyl the compression had to be removed due to the format's shortcomings. I don't know why they do it -- some albums give me a headache they're so badly produced. |
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#32 |
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Reading
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Agree completely with the comments re mastering -- this is where the recordings fall down as opposed to the formats per se.
I would go as far as to say that most recordings made in the last 20 years are unlistenable, due to the range compression that is employed. It is for this reason that some vinyl tends to sound better; the format is incapable of the dynamic range that digital formats have, and as a result the digital masters are abused to take advantage -- but when it came to pressing the vinyl the compression had to be removed due to the format's shortcomings. I don't know why they do it -- some albums give me a headache they're so badly produced. CD has a far greater dynamic range than vinyl. Therefore it follows that there is less need to compress the dynamic range for CD compared to vinyl. So you would be adding compression to the vinyl master not removing it. That is of course if the master had anything more than a 1dB dynamic range to begin with! ![]()
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#33 |
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Not sure what you mean by the second paragraph.
CD has a far greater dynamic range than vinyl. Therefore it follows that there is less need to compress the dynamic range for CD compared to vinyl. So you would be adding compression to the vinyl master not removing it. That is of course if the master had anything more than a 1dB dynamic range to begin with! ![]() ![]() Back in the vinyl days you were severely limited in dynamic range, so records were recorded 'as if' they were compressed, no actual compression required because there wasn't a wide dynamic range source to begin with, you simply didn't record a wide dynamic range on the master. |
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#34 |
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Join Date: Apr 2005
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Not sure what you mean by the second paragraph.
CD has a far greater dynamic range than vinyl. Therefore it follows that there is less need to compress the dynamic range for CD compared to vinyl. So you would be adding compression to the vinyl master not removing it. That is of course if the master had anything more than a 1dB dynamic range to begin with! ![]() ![]() http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/compress...ng-your-music/ |
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#35 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Except vinyl is unlikely to come even close to 20KHz, and certainly not after a few playings as the high frequencies that were there are soon lost due to the wear.
Each to their own, but measurements don't lie - CD is far more accurate (and longer lasting) than vinyl. And now we've opened up the can of worms. At the opposite end of the spectrum CD can more accurately low bass, anyone with less than a stellar turntable trying to reproduce the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture will remember the stylus flying out of the groove when the cannons fire. Equally anyone with less than a stellar audio system will remember the damaged speaker cones when the recording was finally released on CD. Vinyl was, on a good day, and with a PERFECTLY set up turntable /arm/ cartridge combination could expect 25kHz out of vinyl (the odd exception being Shure cartridges, never known for their wide FR) and 30kHz (with admittedly substantial roll off) could be achieved ( the frequency used for CD4). HOWEVER, I realised many years ago - during the pursuit of increasingly exotic audio - that I was spending more time listening to the HiFi than the music it was reproducing (and countless hours fine tuning turntables). Now I except the limitations of both and instead of spending £1000's on audio components I plough that money into music, and I'm happier for it. But for anyone interested in music reproduction, the effects of frequency respone and harmonic effects on instruments you can always check out the work of Prof Hawksford at Essex University who did a lot of work in the mid to late eighties on precisely this topic - his ideas where adopted by many audio companies and the APRS. |
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#36 |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
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Digital is the problem, music these days are recorded digital and it certainly loses something, even modern vinyls are not the same as years ago because the original have been converted to digital.
I can tell the difference in my mates studio as he records digitally these days, have done for years. Certainly different to the sound of his older stuff from the 8 track and the desk is still the same, yes it is a very old mixing desk. the only difference is it now recorded and mixed on the computer. |
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#37 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Herts
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There may be less need but most music nowadays is horrible compressed...
A great pleasure for me to get the vinyl out and blow my daughter's friends away with a demonstration of the clarity of what a decent hi-fi can produce. Most teenagers have only listened to music through tiny earphones or cheap tin-point speakers. |
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#38 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yorkshire
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I would go as far as to say that most recordings made in the last 20 years are unlistenable, due to the range compression that is employed. It is for this reason that some vinyl tends to sound better; the format is incapable of the dynamic range that digital formats have, and as a result the digital masters are abused to take advantage -- but when it came to pressing the vinyl the compression had to be removed due to the format's shortcomings.
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php...mastered_to_CD Here are examples from the same recordings of the same clipping on CD+vinyl, and clipping on CD but not on vinyl... http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/ind...dpost&p=816336 http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/ind...5&#entry875605 http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/ind...dpost&p=875447 From the late 1970s, most vinyl was cut via digital, even analogue recordings... http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/ind...owtopic=105321 Cheers, David. |
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#39 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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From the late 1970s, most vinyl was cut via digital, even analogue recordings...
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/ind...owtopic=105321 Cheers, David. However a look at the contemporary LP sleeves at the time of CD release to the general public showed many printed with the fanciful AAA or DDD labelling. Analogue recording, Analogue Mixing, analogue mastering. A few were ADA. CDs, of course were AAD (Analogue mastering, Analogue mixing and of course Digital mastering) and ADD. it took a few years for DDA (Lp) and DDD (CD) to become prevalent..In the UK the first digital recordings (if memory serves) were made by Decca and EMI in late 1978 and 1979 respectively |
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#40 |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 6,487
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Not sure what you mean by the second paragraph.
CD has a far greater dynamic range than vinyl. Therefore it follows that there is less need to compress the dynamic range for CD compared to vinyl. So you would be adding compression to the vinyl master not removing it. That is of course if the master had anything more than a 1dB dynamic range to begin with! ![]() ![]() Most music released since digital mastering became commonplace is mastered specifically to take advantage of every bit of the available range, for every instrument. As a result, a very high proportion of it just becomes an unlistenable blur of noise. The art of actually mastering recordings such that each instrument can be picked out from the others has been lost. This isn't a criticism of CD, it's a criticism of the recording studios. Some vinyl recordings get around this by default, by being effectively down-mastered (some of the "SACD" versions of albums have used these alternate masters to give the illusion of higher quality on the higher-bandwidth formats when in reality there's little difference between the two). It has got to the point where some CDs sound like 128K MP3 files, with the "bubbling" effect present on complex passages. |
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#41 |
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Reading
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That isn't the point.
Most music released since digital mastering became commonplace is mastered specifically to take advantage of every bit of the available range, for every instrument. As a result, a very high proportion of it just becomes an unlistenable blur of noise. The art of actually mastering recordings such that each instrument can be picked out from the others has been lost. This isn't a criticism of CD, it's a criticism of the recording studios. Some vinyl recordings get around this by default, by being effectively down-mastered (some of the "SACD" versions of albums have used these alternate masters to give the illusion of higher quality on the higher-bandwidth formats when in reality there's little difference between the two). It has got to the point where some CDs sound like 128K MP3 files, with the "bubbling" effect present on complex passages. |
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#42 |
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Not sure that can be applied to MOST recordings in the 70's.
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#43 |
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Still haven't got a clue what you are talking about.
Still, we've had digital mastering for about 30 years. We've had the loudness war since 1995. Classical and Jazz releases are rarely smashed in the mastering process. Hence I'm not sure that it's true that "Most music released since digital mastering became commonplace" is mastered this way. Probably the majority of CDs sold were, given that pop music sells most, and is most likely to have its dynamic smashed - but there are still a heck of a lot of CDs from before 2000, and a lot of slightly less mainstream CDs, that are/were mastered just fine. Cheers, David. |
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#44 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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I said late 1970s, and you didn't read the link, did you?
The point still stands. Given that it would have been 1979. VERY late 70's |
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#45 |
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Yup. Just missed the word late - I was typing on a phone.
The point still stands. Given that it would have been 1979. VERY late 70's I congratulate you on your user name though ![]() Cheers, David. |
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#46 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 24,092
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cd was designed to have a much wider dynamic range than vinyl, typically limited to maybe 40dB (without looking that up!). But many cds were reissue of existing analogue tapes, and I don't see how modern recordings could make full use of the full cd dynamic range without blowing yer ears out ......
http://pitchfork.com/thepitch/29-vin...digital-audio/ notoriously, the "valve amp sound" is actually odd harmonics distortion ....... where you would go for a reasonable turntable, these days, neither crap nor ridiculously overpriced, I don't know. maybe richer sounds? |
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#47 |
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I congratulate you on your user name though ![]() Cheers, David. It's where all audio started for me. A good old BSR ST17 "needle" tracking at. oooh, I don't know - several pounds and only three records. The Merseybeats on LP and One Meat Ball, The Beverley Sisters and Cocktails For Two by Spike Jones on 78 (inherited from my father.Dan |
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#48 |
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 14,718
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notoriously, the "valve amp sound" is actually odd harmonics distortion .......
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#49 |
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Herefordshire
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I never realised Richer sounds had a store in Cheltenham and one in Cardiff. Both close and easy enough for me to get to, i can have a listen to he products I am looking at.
Also be a few hours out. |
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#50 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 128
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Quote:
Get on Ebay, some great value Rega Planar 3 on there. Best turntable i ever owned, coupled with a Denon PMA350se amp and Mission 751 speakers. Sold it all to help pay for my wedding and regretted it ever since....
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