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Moffat: "We tried to trick Doctor Who fans into thinking Missy was the Rani"


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Old 23-11-2014, 20:12
GDK
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Yes, that's the Casablanca reference. But there's no reference to Romana. Romana has nothing to do with this story, and the fact that the 4th Doctor went to Paris with her is irrelevant.

It's no more a Romana reference than it is a Susan, Barbara or Ian reference, given that the Doctor was in Paris with all three of them; or a Steven reference, given that the Doctor was in Paris with him; or an Amy and Vincent Van Gogh reference, given that the Doctor was in Paris with both of them. That some people added 2 and 2 and got 15 and therefore believed that Missy was Romana in no way means that a throwaway reference to Casablanca is a reference to Romana.
Sorry, but you're being too literal and missing the point.
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Old 23-11-2014, 23:19
Torry_Z
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Yes, that's the Casablanca reference. But there's no reference to Romana. Romana has nothing to do with this story, and the fact that the 4th Doctor went to Paris with her is irrelevant.

It's no more a Romana reference than it is a Susan, Barbara or Ian reference, given that the Doctor was in Paris with all three of them; or a Steven reference, given that the Doctor was in Paris with him; or an Amy and Vincent Van Gogh reference, given that the Doctor was in Paris with both of them. That some people added 2 and 2 and got 15 and therefore believed that Missy was Romana in no way means that a throwaway reference to Casablanca is a reference to Romana.
This is the bit that made people think of Romana before the reveal... Though the real Romana didn't have any hang ups about being called a Time Lord so it was pretty much a bust.

DOCTOR: You're a Time Lord.
MISSY: Time Lady, please, I'm old-fashioned.
DOCTOR: Which Time Lady?
MISSY: The one you abandoned, Doctor. The one you left for dead. Didn't you ever think I'd find my way back?
DOCTOR: Clara. Clara. Clara. I've got to get Clara!
The Casablanca reference was just smaltzy.
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Old 24-11-2014, 07:31
Sara_Peplow
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Doctor and Master/Missy do have a messy complicated history. Expect Missy will return one day. Question is could the Doctor ever bring himself to kill her for real ?. Sounds horrible but even if she was decapitated, stabbed through the heart and cremated could she still regenerate ?. Timelords are not easy to kill.
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Old 24-11-2014, 12:44
Corwin
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Sounds horrible but even if she was decapitated, stabbed through the heart and cremated could she still regenerate ?. Timelords are not easy to kill.
Decapitation would kill a Time Lord as would burning them to ashes (excluding back up plans of magic rings and Prison cults).

Drowning also works (see Turn Left).


With Drowning though I would guess a Time Lord would regenerate but of course if they are still underwater they would just drown again (and again) till their regeneration limit was reached.
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Old 24-11-2014, 14:44
trollface
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Sorry, but you're being too literal and missing the point.
Then please explain the non-literal point.
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Old 24-11-2014, 14:45
trollface
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This is the bit that made people think of Romana before the reveal...
Which still doesn't make a reference to Paris a reference to Romana.

Besides, as the subject of this thread says, Moffat was trying to get people to think she was the Rani.
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Old 24-11-2014, 14:50
trollface
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Expect Missy will return one day.
Spoiler
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Old 24-11-2014, 16:06
doctor blue box
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Decapitation would kill a Time Lord as would burning them to ashes (excluding back up plans of magic rings and Prison cults).

Drowning also works (see Turn Left).


With Drowning though I would guess a Time Lord would regenerate but of course if they are still underwater they would just drown again (and again) till their regeneration limit was reached.
The dialogue in the episode said it happened to fast for him to regenerate, meaning that you can kill a timelord if you mortally wound them and then not physically give there body chance to regenerate before it is fully dead.
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Old 24-11-2014, 16:20
garbage456
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Not what I read . I thought she said she would like to come back
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Old 24-11-2014, 17:10
Torry_Z
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Which still doesn't make a reference to Paris a reference to Romana.

Besides, as the subject of this thread says, Moffat was trying to get people to think she was the Rani.
I was pointing out which bit was the bit that the majority of people went "Oh, Romana?" during the episode, I don't really care about Paris...
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Old 24-11-2014, 21:24
Tom Tit
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With Drowning though I would guess a Time Lord would regenerate but of course if they are still underwater they would just drown again (and again) till their regeneration limit was reached.

I've always been fascinated with this idea. I've long had a Doctor Who story idea that has this exact thing happen to a Time Lord character, or at least the suggestion of it. Not sure if it's a little too much for Doctor Who though. Certainly a horrific concept: a kind of Time-Lord Prometheus, regenerating over and over to die again and again.
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Old 25-11-2014, 01:59
trollface
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Not what I read . I thought she said she would like to come back
Spoiler
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Old 25-11-2014, 02:00
trollface
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I was pointing out which bit was the bit that the majority of people went "Oh, Romana?" during the episode, I don't really care about Paris...
I'd assumed that since you quoted my post that your reply was in some way relevant to it.
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Old 25-11-2014, 02:14
Corwin
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The dialogue in the episode said it happened to fast for him to regenerate, meaning that you can kill a timelord if you mortally wound them and then not physically give there body chance to regenerate before it is fully dead.
It was a UNIT Soldier who said that IIRC so probably not that familiar with the process.


Since they never showed the Doctor's face* I've always wondered if he had regenerated a couple of times before finally dying.




*And yes the more likely reason for not showing his face is not to upset the Children rather than imply a regeneration(or two).
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Old 25-11-2014, 07:01
Torry_Z
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I'd assumed that since you quoted my post that your reply was in some way relevant to it.
Yes, it was relevant as you said in the post there was no reference to Romana which I agree that the Casablance reference isn't to Romana it's as I said a smaltzy reference to two lovers having a moment which I think someone else covered further up as well... However, there was a sneaky albeit ambiguous one... The one I quoted in my post... I just don't always have time to chop people's quotes for the relevant bit and it's tricky on my tablet.

Yes, that's the Casablanca reference. But there's no reference to Romana. Romana has nothing to do with this story, and the fact that the 4th Doctor went to Paris with her is irrelevant.
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Old 25-11-2014, 08:30
trollface
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Y] However, there was a sneaky albeit ambiguous one... The one I quoted in my post...
That wasn't a reference to anybody. It was a red herring to try to get people to think of the Rani. The Doctor didn't abandon Romana, or leave her for dead, which he would have had to have done in order for that to be a reference to Romana.
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Old 25-11-2014, 10:56
Firegazer
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I have to admit, you're right.
Don't you think he looks tired?
Absolutely brilliant. Using a quote from a show against someone who produces the show...
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Old 30-11-2014, 00:17
GDK
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Then please explain the non-literal point.
Sorry, I think I misread your earlier post. Missy's reference to Paris was, as you said, metaphorical. It was others who seemed to think it was literally a reference to a previous visit to Paris with a female such as Romana and others.

It's interesting that there must be something else going on as well as the obvious Casablanca, romantic interlude reference, when set in the context of the line before:

The Doctor: Why are you still alive?
Missy: You saved me.
The Doctor: I saved Gallifrey.
Missy: Yes, Gallifrey too, I suppose. There’s always collateral damage with you and me. It’s our Paris.

If "It's our Paris" is only a Casablanca, romantic interlude, reference then what is the meaning of "collateral damage"?

Is it Missy/Master just being ironically self deprecating, knowing the Doctor's reaction to realising that the saving of Gallifrey had the "collateral damage" (unforeseen, unintended consequence) of saving her? Or was it more than that? Something further back? In their joint past? Was it damaged when they fell out and both left Gallifrey? Might there be an origin of the conflict between the Master and the Doctor there? Was Gallifrey damaged or abandoned, like Paris in the Second World War, in the face of some plot (invasion) of the Master's?
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Old 30-11-2014, 01:04
GDK
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Or does she think, in her insanity, that the Doctor was really intent on saving her, and the saving of Gallifrey was the unintended "collateral damage"?
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Old 30-11-2014, 01:39
Ian K Mc
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It is a shame that Missy wasn't the Rani. Or better still ....a new character altogether rather than in my mind ruining and old character.
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Old 30-11-2014, 12:08
Sara_Peplow
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Missy introduced Clara to the Doctor to see what would happen when he had a "control freak " friend right ?. Didn't she know he had been married for the fourth time to a part time lord ?. River would have been a much better candidate. Kovarian tried and failed to do a similar thing with her. Amy had just met her (future daughter) and noticed the effect she had on him in TOTA. Saying "You're letting people call you sir you never do that". Amy even asked both of them if they were married. Would have loved a Missy /River confrontation. "Just try it ,you'll be laughing on the other side of your face when I'm finished".
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Old 30-11-2014, 16:05
haphash
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He should focus less on trying to trick viewers and more on writing good scripts!
I agree. The main problem with Moffatt that he tries too hard to be clever all the time.
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Old 30-11-2014, 19:22
doctor blue box
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It was a UNIT Soldier who said that IIRC so probably not that familiar with the process.


Since they never showed the Doctor's face* I've always wondered if he had regenerated a couple of times before finally dying.




*And yes the more likely reason for not showing his face is not to upset the Children rather than imply a regeneration(or two).
Thinking about the Master in series 3, where he could actually choose to not regenerate and just die (which he did), as neat as a multiple regenerating doctor sounds, I think realistically, the doctor in the turn left version of events would just let himself die if he was drowning underwater with no way of escape. allowing himself to regenerate a few times first would just make it take longer for him to actually die and would make it an even more excruciating death.
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Old 30-11-2014, 23:14
nyingy
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Thinking about the Master in series 3, where he could actually choose to not regenerate and just die (which he did), as neat as a multiple regenerating doctor sounds, I think realistically, the doctor in the turn left version of events would just let himself die if he was drowning underwater with no way of escape. allowing himself to regenerate a few times first would just make it take longer for him to actually die and would make it an even more excruciating death.
I thought this was covered fairly clearly in The Impossible Astronaut: if a Time Lord is killed during the process of regeneration, he/she dies fully.
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