Sorry, but you're being too literal and missing the point.

This is the bit that made people think of Romana before the reveal... Though the real Romana didn't have any hang ups about being called a Time Lord so it was pretty much a bust.


The Casablanca reference was just smaltzy.

Doctor and Master/Missy do have a messy complicated history. Expect Missy will return one day. Question is could the Doctor ever bring himself to kill her for real ?. Sounds horrible but even if she was decapitated, stabbed through the heart and cremated could she still regenerate ?. Timelords are not easy to kill.

Decapitation would kill a Time Lord as would burning them to ashes (excluding back up plans of magic rings and Prison cults).

Drowning also works (see Turn Left).


With Drowning though I would guess a Time Lord would regenerate but of course if they are still underwater they would just drown again (and again) till their regeneration limit was reached.

Then please explain the non-literal point.

Which still doesn't make a reference to Paris a reference to Romana.

Besides, as the subject of this thread says, Moffat was trying to get people to think she was the Rani.

The dialogue in the episode said it happened to fast for him to regenerate, meaning that you can kill a timelord if you mortally wound them and then not physically give there body chance to regenerate before it is fully dead.

Not what I read . I thought she said she would like to come back

I was pointing out which bit was the bit that the majority of people went "Oh, Romana?" during the episode, I don't really care about Paris...

I've always been fascinated with this idea. I've long had a Doctor Who story idea that has this exact thing happen to a Time Lord character, or at least the suggestion of it. Not sure if it's a little too much for Doctor Who though. Certainly a horrific concept: a kind of Time-Lord Prometheus, regenerating over and over to die again and again.

I'd assumed that since you quoted my post that your reply was in some way relevant to it.

It was a UNIT Soldier who said that IIRC so probably not that familiar with the process.


Since they never showed the Doctor's face* I've always wondered if he had regenerated a couple of times before finally dying.




*And yes the more likely reason for not showing his face is not to upset the Children rather than imply a regeneration(or two).

Yes, it was relevant as you said in the post there was no reference to Romana which I agree that the Casablance reference isn't to Romana it's as I said a smaltzy reference to two lovers having a moment which I think someone else covered further up as well... However, there was a sneaky albeit ambiguous one... The one I quoted in my post... I just don't always have time to chop people's quotes for the relevant bit and it's tricky on my tablet.

That wasn't a reference to anybody. It was a red herring to try to get people to think of the Rani. The Doctor didn't abandon Romana, or leave her for dead, which he would have had to have done in order for that to be a reference to Romana.

Absolutely brilliant. Using a quote from a show against someone who produces the show...

Sorry, I think I misread your earlier post. Missy's reference to Paris was, as you said, metaphorical. It was others who seemed to think it was literally a reference to a previous visit to Paris with a female such as Romana and others.

It's interesting that there must be something else going on as well as the obvious Casablanca, romantic interlude reference, when set in the context of the line before:

The Doctor: Why are you still alive?
Missy: You saved me.
The Doctor: I saved Gallifrey.
Missy: Yes, Gallifrey too, I suppose. There’s always collateral damage with you and me. It’s our Paris.

If "It's our Paris" is only a Casablanca, romantic interlude, reference then what is the meaning of "collateral damage"?

Is it Missy/Master just being ironically self deprecating, knowing the Doctor's reaction to realising that the saving of Gallifrey had the "collateral damage" (unforeseen, unintended consequence) of saving her? Or was it more than that? Something further back? In their joint past? Was it damaged when they fell out and both left Gallifrey? Might there be an origin of the conflict between the Master and the Doctor there? Was Gallifrey damaged or abandoned, like Paris in the Second World War, in the face of some plot (invasion) of the Master's?

Or does she think, in her insanity, that the Doctor was really intent on saving her, and the saving of Gallifrey was the unintended "collateral damage"?

It is a shame that Missy wasn't the Rani. Or better still ....a new character altogether rather than in my mind ruining and old character.

Missy introduced Clara to the Doctor to see what would happen when he had a "control freak " friend right ?. Didn't she know he had been married for the fourth time to a part time lord ?. River would have been a much better candidate. Kovarian tried and failed to do a similar thing with her. Amy had just met her (future daughter) and noticed the effect she had on him in TOTA. Saying "You're letting people call you sir you never do that". Amy even asked both of them if they were married. Would have loved a Missy /River confrontation. "Just try it ,you'll be laughing on the other side of your face when I'm finished".

I agree. The main problem with Moffatt that he tries too hard to be clever all the time.

Thinking about the Master in series 3, where he could actually choose to not regenerate and just die (which he did), as neat as a multiple regenerating doctor sounds, I think realistically, the doctor in the turn left version of events would just let himself die if he was drowning underwater with no way of escape. allowing himself to regenerate a few times first would just make it take longer for him to actually die and would make it an even more excruciating death.

I thought this was covered fairly clearly in The Impossible Astronaut: if a Time Lord is killed during the process of regeneration, he/she dies fully.