I think it's a Latin dance because it's not in hold, but some people argue that it's a ballroom dance. It's totally different to a ballroom tango
Argentine tango ballroom or Latin
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Originally Posted by Strictly_fan:
“I think it's a Latin dance because it's not in hold, but some people argue that it's a ballroom dance. It's totally different to a ballroom tango”
“I think it's a Latin dance because it's not in hold, but some people argue that it's a ballroom dance. It's totally different to a ballroom tango”
To me it feels more Latin (dresses & steps) where Charleston definitely feels Ballroom inspired.
On this show, it classifies as a Ballroom Dance but then again some couples in previous series had it as their remaining Latin....so who knows really.
But I think that in the real competition world, it classifies as Neither . Personally I think that it has a lot of characteristics of some Ballroom dances.
It is by far my favorite dance
.
But I think that in the real competition world, it classifies as Neither . Personally I think that it has a lot of characteristics of some Ballroom dances.
It is by far my favorite dance
.
I don't think it belongs to either category. It has in common with ballroom that it is (supposed) to be danced in hold, albeit a very different hold to ballroom and it is progressive - ie circulates around the ballroom anticlockwise. It is Latin in that itoriginated in a Latin American country (although Argentina may be geographically in South America it is very different to its neighbours) Other than that it has bugger all in common with the Latin dances.
years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin
Originally Posted by bendymixer:
“years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin”
“years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin”
That's interesting. Thank you for that. A new slant.
Originally Posted by bendymixer:
“years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin”
“years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin”
I was going to say exactly this...on a similar theme I seem to recall that the Jive used to be known as Ballroom jive and was classed as a ballroom dance ( many, many years ago_Not many know that it is actually a swing dance
Originally Posted by Jennifer_F:
“I was going to say exactly this...on a similar theme I seem to recall that the Jive used to be known as Ballroom jive and was classed as a ballroom dance ( many, many years ago_Not many know that it is actually a swing dance”
“I was going to say exactly this...on a similar theme I seem to recall that the Jive used to be known as Ballroom jive and was classed as a ballroom dance ( many, many years ago_Not many know that it is actually a swing dance”
yes that's right my dad told me about this as Jive shares its roots with so many of the swing dances
Originally Posted by Strictly_fan:
“I think it's a Latin dance because it's not in hold, but some people argue that it's a ballroom dance. It's totally different to a ballroom tango”
“I think it's a Latin dance because it's not in hold, but some people argue that it's a ballroom dance. It's totally different to a ballroom tango”
AT is 100% in hold. I do it 100% in close embrace - that's chest to chest and forehead to forehead and cheek-to-cheek 100% of the time for a tanda (group) of four 3 minute songs back-to-back. Others here prefer open embrace. But still whichever style, it is always 100% in hold.
I would definitely say latin. The hold is just too different for it to be ballroom. Something about the footwork suggests latin to me too - is it largely toe leads?
For this reason I wouldn't put charleston in the ballroom category either. Jive is classed as a latin dance and to me it's more similar to jive than any of the ballroom dances, even quickstep. It can be danced side by side or even alone - you can't say that about any of the ballroom dances.
Luckily we don't really have to decide but definitely an interesting thing to consider.
EDIT: I remember Ian Waite a few years ago (maybe even last year) saying an easy way for the strictly audience to differentiate between AT and ballroom tango is to look at the hold. If the couple make a V shape it's ballroom, if it's an A shape it's AT. Obviously a simplified way of looking at it - but that V shape, the flower going over the vase etc is what characterises ballroom dances to me.
For this reason I wouldn't put charleston in the ballroom category either. Jive is classed as a latin dance and to me it's more similar to jive than any of the ballroom dances, even quickstep. It can be danced side by side or even alone - you can't say that about any of the ballroom dances.
Luckily we don't really have to decide but definitely an interesting thing to consider.
EDIT: I remember Ian Waite a few years ago (maybe even last year) saying an easy way for the strictly audience to differentiate between AT and ballroom tango is to look at the hold. If the couple make a V shape it's ballroom, if it's an A shape it's AT. Obviously a simplified way of looking at it - but that V shape, the flower going over the vase etc is what characterises ballroom dances to me.
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“Perhaps the first question to ask is - what makes any dance a Latin dance?”
“Perhaps the first question to ask is - what makes any dance a Latin dance?”
Good question. I am sure one of the international 10 experts will be able to answer.
My naïve take is that it is to do with origins. Most of the dances I consider to be Latin have an afro origin. So Salsa, Cha and Rumba are from Afro Cuban roots and I imagine Samba from Afro Brazilian Roots. I see them as coming from the street, working classes, slave classes etc.
But I think my theory falls apart when Jive gets added to the mix. That has a jazz origin doesn't it. Does that class as an afro root? And then doesn't Foxtrot have jazz connections too?
And then again the street dance upwards theory could also apply to Paso Doble and Tango too.
I am buggered if I know.
Originally Posted by Ellie_:
“I would definitely say latin. The hold is just too different for it to be ballroom. Something about the footwork suggests latin to me too - is it largely toe leads?
For this reason I wouldn't put charleston in the ballroom category either. Jive is classed as a latin dance and to me it's more similar to jive than any of the ballroom dances, even quickstep. It can be danced side by side or even alone - you can't say that about any of the ballroom dances.
Luckily we don't really have to decide but definitely an interesting thing to consider.
EDIT: I remember Ian Waite a few years ago (maybe even last year) saying an easy way for the strictly audience to differentiate between AT and ballroom tango is to look at the hold. If the couple make a V shape it's ballroom, if it's an A shape it's AT. Obviously a simplified way of looking at it - but that V shape, the flower going over the vase etc is what characterises ballroom dances to me.”
“I would definitely say latin. The hold is just too different for it to be ballroom. Something about the footwork suggests latin to me too - is it largely toe leads?
For this reason I wouldn't put charleston in the ballroom category either. Jive is classed as a latin dance and to me it's more similar to jive than any of the ballroom dances, even quickstep. It can be danced side by side or even alone - you can't say that about any of the ballroom dances.
Luckily we don't really have to decide but definitely an interesting thing to consider.
EDIT: I remember Ian Waite a few years ago (maybe even last year) saying an easy way for the strictly audience to differentiate between AT and ballroom tango is to look at the hold. If the couple make a V shape it's ballroom, if it's an A shape it's AT. Obviously a simplified way of looking at it - but that V shape, the flower going over the vase etc is what characterises ballroom dances to me.”
Yes all toe leads really. Some decorations are done with the heel but one steps on the balls. The hold shape is a good differentiator though.
However I think AT borrow some steps from ballroom even if they are adapted. Isn't there a basic step in ballroom which is broadly side, forward, side, backward (but in the line of dance) side, forward etc? So you travel down the floor quite rapidly. In AT we call it grapevine. (Although this name is also sometimes as a translation from Spanish to a another step too)
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“Good question. I am sure one of the international 10 experts will be able to answer.
My naïve take is that it is to do with origins. Most of the dances I consider to be Latin have an afro origin. So Salsa, Cha and Rumba are from Afro Cuban roots and I imagine Samba from Afro Brazilian Roots. I see them as coming from the street, working classes, slave classes etc.
But I think my theory falls apart when Jive gets added to the mix. That has a jazz origin doesn't it. Does that class as an afro root? And then doesn't Foxtrot have jazz connections too?
And then again the street dance upwards theory could also apply to Paso Doble and Tango too.
I am buggered if I know.”
“Good question. I am sure one of the international 10 experts will be able to answer.
My naïve take is that it is to do with origins. Most of the dances I consider to be Latin have an afro origin. So Salsa, Cha and Rumba are from Afro Cuban roots and I imagine Samba from Afro Brazilian Roots. I see them as coming from the street, working classes, slave classes etc.
But I think my theory falls apart when Jive gets added to the mix. That has a jazz origin doesn't it. Does that class as an afro root? And then doesn't Foxtrot have jazz connections too?
And then again the street dance upwards theory could also apply to Paso Doble and Tango too.
I am buggered if I know.
”
My initial thought is that both the AT and the Tango are Latin dances because they originated in a Latin country.
The Tango is a Latin dance which is classed as a Ballroom because it is performed primarily in hold. Same for the AT therefore.
But don't ever refer to Argentines as "Latins" - unless they want to drum up continental support for The Falklands / Las Malvinas.
Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they are British expats living in Paris.
Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they are British expats living in Paris.
Originally Posted by Jennifer_F:
“I was going to say exactly this...on a similar theme I seem to recall that the Jive used to be known as Ballroom jive and was classed as a ballroom dance ( many, many years ago_Not many know that it is actually a swing dance”
“I was going to say exactly this...on a similar theme I seem to recall that the Jive used to be known as Ballroom jive and was classed as a ballroom dance ( many, many years ago_Not many know that it is actually a swing dance”
As a postscript to the above, it was the G.Is. who brought it here during WW2.
(I remember it well btw.)
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“But don't ever refer to Argentines as "Latins" - unless they want to drum up continental support for The Falklands / Las Malvinas.
Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they are British expats living in Paris.”
“But don't ever refer to Argentines as "Latins" - unless they want to drum up continental support for The Falklands / Las Malvinas.
Argentines are Italians who speak Spanish and think they are British expats living in Paris.”
Bii, indeed! Plus some Jews and descendants from Germans ex WW2.
There is a little Spanish influence, but little compared to other latinoamerican countries. And all the argentines I have met ( a lot, my uncle is Argentinian) consider themselves Latinos because it is a latinoamerican country.
(Latino only has a bad rep if used in the context of immigration as far as i have come across )
Originally Posted by An Thropologist:
“....
....But I think my theory falls apart when Jive gets added to the mix. That has a jazz origin doesn't it. Does that class as an afro root? And then doesn't Foxtrot have jazz connections too?
And then again the street dance upwards theory could also apply to Paso Doble and Tango too.
I am buggered if I know.”
“....
....But I think my theory falls apart when Jive gets added to the mix. That has a jazz origin doesn't it. Does that class as an afro root? And then doesn't Foxtrot have jazz connections too?
And then again the street dance upwards theory could also apply to Paso Doble and Tango too.
I am buggered if I know.
”
Jazz sure does have an Afro root! 'Authentic' 'Roots' 'Vernacular' Jazz (all different terms for the same thing, meaning, not Ballet-Jazz) is thought to have originated with those forced into slavery in American - it's essentially rhythm tap without the tap shoes.
Charleston is a variant of Authentic Jazz, as is Lindy Hop. When the music fashion changed from big band Jazz to rock and roll, the dance adapted to the new music, this new adaption was adopted, formalised (and of course, changed slightly again) and became the Jive as seen in 10 dance (although us swing dancers lazily call it 'Ballroom Jive' to differentiate between it and Ceroc/Modern Jive and Rockabilly/Rock and Roll Jive (the Jive that ordinary folk were doing at parties in the 50s).
Some Charleston/Jazz steps where adapted and formalised by ballroom dancers where they became part of the Quickstep, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, please ballroom dancers!) is a fast version of Foxtrot.
My grandma, who was in her 80's when I started learning Lindy Hoo told me that nice girls didn't 'Jitterbug', they stuck to the Foxtrot (and that girls preferred dancing with GI's to British soldiers because 'their uniforms were less itchy')!
Originally Posted by DiamondBetty:
“Jazz sure does have an Afro root! 'Authentic' 'Roots' 'Vernacular' Jazz (all different terms for the same thing, meaning, not Ballet-Jazz) is thought to have originated with those forced into slavery in American - it's essentially rhythm tap without the tap shoes.
Charleston is a variant of Authentic Jazz, as is Lindy Hop. When the music fashion changed from big band Jazz to rock and roll, the dance adapted to the new music, this new adaption was adopted, formalised (and of course, changed slightly again) and became the Jive as seen in 10 dance (although us swing dancers lazily call it 'Ballroom Jive' to differentiate between it and Ceroc/Modern Jive and Rockabilly/Rock and Roll Jive (the Jive that ordinary folk were doing at parties in the 50s).
Some Charleston/Jazz steps where adapted and formalised by ballroom dancers where they became part of the Quickstep, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, please ballroom dancers!) is a fast version of Foxtrot.
My grandma, who was in her 80's when I started learning Lindy Hoo told me that nice girls didn't 'Jitterbug', they stuck to the Foxtrot (and that girls preferred dancing with GI's to British soldiers because 'their uniforms were less itchy')!”
“Jazz sure does have an Afro root! 'Authentic' 'Roots' 'Vernacular' Jazz (all different terms for the same thing, meaning, not Ballet-Jazz) is thought to have originated with those forced into slavery in American - it's essentially rhythm tap without the tap shoes.
Charleston is a variant of Authentic Jazz, as is Lindy Hop. When the music fashion changed from big band Jazz to rock and roll, the dance adapted to the new music, this new adaption was adopted, formalised (and of course, changed slightly again) and became the Jive as seen in 10 dance (although us swing dancers lazily call it 'Ballroom Jive' to differentiate between it and Ceroc/Modern Jive and Rockabilly/Rock and Roll Jive (the Jive that ordinary folk were doing at parties in the 50s).
Some Charleston/Jazz steps where adapted and formalised by ballroom dancers where they became part of the Quickstep, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, please ballroom dancers!) is a fast version of Foxtrot.
My grandma, who was in her 80's when I started learning Lindy Hoo told me that nice girls didn't 'Jitterbug', they stuck to the Foxtrot (and that girls preferred dancing with GI's to British soldiers because 'their uniforms were less itchy')!”
Well in the course of this thread we seem between us to have concluded that the distinctions between ballroom and Latin are somewhat arbitrary.
I've always thought that the Argentine Tango, the Paso Doble the Charleston were ballroom dances. :O
Originally Posted by marinamau:
“Bii, indeed! Plus some Jews and descendants from Germans ex WW2.
There is a little Spanish influence, but little compared to other latinoamerican countries. And all the argentines I have met ( a lot, my uncle is Argentinian) consider themselves Latinos because it is a latinoamerican country.
(Latino only has a bad rep if used in the context of immigration as far as i have come across )”
“Bii, indeed! Plus some Jews and descendants from Germans ex WW2.
There is a little Spanish influence, but little compared to other latinoamerican countries. And all the argentines I have met ( a lot, my uncle is Argentinian) consider themselves Latinos because it is a latinoamerican country.
(Latino only has a bad rep if used in the context of immigration as far as i have come across )”
Do a survey on the Argentines you meet (not via dancing) and find out the proportion of them who dance tango at least once a week. I'd be curious to find out.
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Do a survey on the Argentines you meet (not via dancing) and find out the proportion of them who dance tango at least once a week. I'd be curious to find out.”
“Do a survey on the Argentines you meet (not via dancing) and find out the proportion of them who dance tango at least once a week. I'd be curious to find out.”
I know a lot of AT dancers and a few Argentinians (maybe 10 or thereabouts) all youngish 20's and 30's. There is no correlation with the sets. None of the Argentinians I know dance AT and all bar one have the attitude " What on earth do you want do that for?" or "Gosh you dance AT - my grandmother used to do that"
I tease them by saying when you want your culture back you will find it alive and well and living in the church halls of Europe.
Just one has been persuaded to come to classes. We do however have quite a few Chileans in our classes.
Originally Posted by bendymixer:
“years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin”
“years ago before the start of the english or ballroom tango - tango was classed as latin and it was far nearer argentine tango than the modern tango today - and as the dance is from latin america would say it was latin”
If you go to a Social dance you can still find some compere's introduce tango (ballroom tango that is) as Latin.
And weirdly the jive was once classed as ballroom!
What a strange world we inhabit!!
Originally Posted by henrywilliams58:
“Do a survey on the Argentines you meet (not via dancing) and find out the proportion of them who dance tango at least once a week. I'd be curious to find out.”
“Do a survey on the Argentines you meet (not via dancing) and find out the proportion of them who dance tango at least once a week. I'd be curious to find out.”
Out of all the ones I have met, only one! He was my uncle's brother in law, a gentleman in his late seventies then. He insisted that I danced with him. The simplest of milongas (i think it was, a few years ago). And he was wonderful, I had never danced AT before but he was an extraordinary lead, i instinctively knew what to do following him. So understated and powerful.
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