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Mark is easily the strongest candidate |
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#26 |
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I agree - with the caveat that Lord Sugar likes salesmen, who have massive flaws, and tends to keep them in till late. The show also tends to invent cases for people who are being kept in . Mark hasn't shown that much business sense. He lost as PM - tellingly to Bianca. He has sold well some weeks. His record is beginning to look like Ruth's. Neil has supported him on twitter and the show suggests they share some negative characteristics. He's now, however, been labelled as someone who avoids risk and traps others into danger. He's avoided the tasks nearest to his own field - which means he can't prove his proposal case as well as others can and Lord Sugar has asked why . He's been called a gameplayer in the boardroom , and his war with Daniel is pretty unmissable. The argument is there to be picked up that he is risking success- by making decisions with an eye to the boardroom argument to come. He may be looking as damaged as Ruth did - when Lord Sugar got into into his head that she had tricked Syed into making mistakes in the cruise ship entertainer task. The theme of having someone he can trust to work with comes up again and again with Lord Sugar, and he's raised a flag against Mark. Once its mentioned in the boardroom it tends not to go away. lord Sugar has also never hired the brash, the ruthless, the gameplayer, or the salesman - unless you count Lee.
I think Katie is ahead too . She's shown basic business skills, including selling, she might not have had . She did jump into a task that had no relationship to her own specialit - and won it. She's shown that she can do what she says she can - she is shown doing it on the youtube video. She's shown a head for strategy and figures. She's as good as Mark at spotting what went wrong, and as Roisin at assessing the candidates. That doesn't mean that she will win though. Leah won with a tight proposal in the right cost/return/ risk bracket - after Luisa did much better on basic skills and on tasks. Roisin could do that with the right proposal. Katie can probably expand her fitness empire - but he found some spurious arguments against Fancesca expanding her dance empire. Somethings may not interest him. Solomon may turn out to have a proposal like Tom's -which will win even if there's lots of better task records - or he may have one like Nick or Neil. I don't think Francesca was ever going to win, because she was a pretty poor task performer and didn't have a single shining moment on any of them. In fact, I find it astonishing that she got as far as she did. It was so cringeworthy on the 'Final Five' show last year when they kept saying things like, 'Francesca is so fair' because there wasn't anything else positive to say about her. |
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#27 |
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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BIB: Why wouldn't you count Lee? He's as much a winner as any of the others.
I don't think Francesca was ever going to win, because she was a pretty poor task performer and didn't have a single shining moment on any of them. In fact, I find it astonishing that she got as far as she did. It was so cringeworthy on the 'Final Five' show last year when they kept saying things like, 'Francesca is so fair' because there wasn't anything else positive to say about her. Whether Sugar believed Francesca was the right person to take that forward - with her ludicrously made-up revenue figures and all - is another question. Certainly, I thought her business idea was stronger than she was - but she was never close to winning the series for me. |
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#28 |
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I wasn't overly impressed with Francesca during the tasks, but I did think Sugar was a bit too dismissive about her business plan when he said (I forget the exact words) that he couldn't see how it could scale. There have been a number of arts-based businesses which have successfully expanded through a franchise model (Stagecoach, for example) and, given the right model, I thought it had some potential.
Whether Sugar believed Francesca was the right person to take that forward - with her ludicrously made-up revenue figures and all - is another question. Certainly, I thought her business idea was stronger than she was - but she was never close to winning the series for me. |
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#29 |
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Yeah, I didn't actually mind Francesca's business plan - I work in the arts, and I could see her plan working as well. But whilst a strong performer on the tasks will not win if their business plan is weak - as Helen, Jade, Neil and Jordan discovered - that also works the other way around. It would be absurd to invest in someone on the basis of a business plan when their performance on the tasks had been poor throughout. It would completely undermine the point of the tasks. There are some people who argue that that was what happened with Tom, but the majority of fans agree that whilst Tom had a poor record on paper, he himself was actually a pretty strong performer. Francesca didn't really do anything of note throughout the whole series - she could have been fired in Week 2 or Week 6 and we wouldn't have remembered her as being anything special. Frankly, I'm astounded she made it to interviews, let alone third place. If she had won, she'd have been the worst winner ever, even though her business plan wasn't bad. The fact that she wasn't especially good on any of the tasks confirms to me that, as you suggested, she was not the right person to take it forward.
It's much easier for Sugar to provide resources, contacts and guidance to compensate for deficiencies in his business partner than it is to rescue a flawed business plan. A bad business idea is a bad business idea but the people/skills side can be fixed with support, as long as some of the building blocks are in place. |
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#30 |
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I really want Mark to stay
... just long enough for Claude Littner to tear him a new one
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#31 |
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Mark is an utter snake. I do think it will be between him, Roisin and Katie though. He's sly but he sure knows how to manipulate people to his own advantage. I don't like him but he has drive and plays the game well.
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#32 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Mark may easily be the strongest candidate out of all the boys but he will stab you in the back and cannot be trusted.
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#33 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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Apart from being good at sales, Mark is a liability on most of the tasks he's been on. He's so focused on protecting himself should he end up in the boardroom that he forgets about actually winning the task. That's why he's been on the losing team so many times.
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#34 |
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Yeah, I didn't actually mind Francesca's business plan - I work in the arts, and I could see her plan working as well. But whilst a strong performer on the tasks will not win if their business plan is weak - as Helen, Jade, Neil and Jordan discovered - that also works the other way around. It would be absurd to invest in someone on the basis of a business plan when their performance on the tasks had been poor throughout. It would completely undermine the point of the tasks. There are some people who argue that that was what happened with Tom, but the majority of fans agree that whilst Tom had a poor record on paper, he himself was actually a pretty strong performer. Francesca didn't really do anything of note throughout the whole series - she could have been fired in Week 2 or Week 6 and we wouldn't have remembered her as being anything special. Frankly, I'm astounded she made it to interviews, let alone third place. If she had won, she'd have been the worst winner ever, even though her business plan wasn't bad. The fact that she wasn't especially good on any of the tasks confirms to me that, as you suggested, she was not the right person to take it forward.
Tom was pretty hopeless on task - his more acute observations fell on deaf ears and there were not many of them. Buthe didn't need to show those skills - all he had to do was hand over his patent, and go and work in a cupboard- till he came up with another product. He had shown that he could do what was required on top of that by doing it already - failure in umpteen tasks didn't matter. Things change if you have a proposal that needs more inter personal, selling, advertising, or financial skills. Lord Sugar isn't going to go into business with someone he doesn't trust, or who doesn't listen, or is impulsive, or will make cras mistakes either.. Nor is he going to take many of the proposals that set of alarm bells - like hedge funds, or call centres , or businesses with multiple other partners. The problem area is people like, Francesca who come with a proposal that doesn't have a professional input into producing viable figures, or who just offer him fields he doesn't want to get into. There's zero reason to think she couldn't have added some more sites to her dance empire - scaling up meant doing the same again - he probably just wasn't interested. It can' be just problematic figures alone that decide it. With Tom, he ignored the proposal completely, and ignored Tom's show record too - because he saw a proposal he wanted. He also picked up Susan's proposal - ignoring her odd figures at interview too. He's got that problem this year - as there's zero reason to think Katie or Solomon can't do what they are proposing. Katie has national awards for her fitness work, and Solomon has already set up one business at least. The question is, is he at all interested in their fields. Roisin is the one we know less about - does she have to prove she can do something she hasn't done , or not? . Mark, for me, has to many negatives associated with him by Lord Sugar to look like a winner - without a big redemption story arch . His Lordship has variously claimed he's played a game, avoided leadership, and set up people to take the blame, and he's now added that he doesn't know what Mark does, and noted that Mark doesn't actually sell or do anything creative in his day job .Fair or not, it just doesn't sound like how you would describe your winner. |
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#35 |
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Its obviously going to be between Roisin and Solomon. Mark will be caught out in the interview. I don't like Mark, but there is no denying he is a strong candidate.
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#36 |
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I find him slimy and I don't think Mark is a strong candidate at all.
He is a one-trick pony; all he can do is sell......oh and lie. Nothing else. He should stick to chucking prawns on the barbie!
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#37 |
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He also picked up Susan's proposal - ignoring her odd figures at interview too.
Rather made a mockery of the programme that year. Or made overt how little the programme matters. |
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#38 |
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And, of course, ignoring the fact that she lost...
Rather made a mockery of the programme that year. Or made overt how little the programme matters. |
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#39 |
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In fairness, it was the first time they had done the business proposal format, and since then Lord Sugar has taken care to only let people onto the programme whose proposals he had some interest in in the first place.
And, secondly, you're wrong. The year after Jade failed the interview round because her telemarketing business plan would have earned Sugar too much negative publicity. It wasn't something he wanted to get in to. Also Francesca being fired for her business plan not working has already been mentioned, and that year Neil was fired for his business plan being completely unworkable. More notably Jordan was summarily fired for not even owning any shares in the company he was asking Sugar to invest in, and for promising only a small amount of equity. So, at least last year, people could get on the programme while having plans Sugar wasn't interested in. Given that Lindsay's plan this year was basically the same as Francesca's last year, I think it's safe to say that they still can. |
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#40 |
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Firstly, you're arguing the opposite of what's being talked about. It's not the fact that there were contestants with business plans that Sugar wasn't interested in, it's the fact that Tom won because of a patent he held despite doing badly throughout the series and his business plan not involving the patent he holds, and Susan also getting an investment, despite not winning at all.
And, secondly, you're wrong. The year after Jade failed the interview round because her telemarketing business plan would have earned Sugar too much negative publicity. It wasn't something he wanted to get in to. Also Francesca being fired for her business plan not working has already been mentioned, and that year Neil was fired for his business plan being completely unworkable. More notably Jordan was summarily fired for not even owning any shares in the company he was asking Sugar to invest in, and for promising only a small amount of equity. So, at least last year, people could get on the programme while having plans Sugar wasn't interested in. Given that Lindsay's plan this year was basically the same as Francesca's last year, I think it's safe to say that they still can. Your other instances are easy to explain. Lord Sugar said at the start of this year that whilst he has seen the outlines of the business plans, he has not seen them in any detail and it is entirely possible that they will not sound so appealing once dissected. With a one-sentence description, Neil and Jordan's plans probably sounded entirely rational, and it was only when they were analysed in detail that they did not work or were not permissible respectively. As for Jade, I concede the fact that that is a hard one to make that argument with, but nevertheless, Lord Sugar said in the opening boardroom to Series 8 that he had already looked at the business plans and anything he had no interest in had already gone, so he must have at least had some level of interest in Jade's plan from the start. He said nothing to this effect at the start of Series 7. |
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#41 |
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Not sure having a dumb idea, offering it , and then hearing other people tell you its a dumb idea, and deciding it was a dumb idea, shows that much thats praiseworthy. It shows you can understand a good argument, but will come up with dumb ideas on your own.
Now Pamela did stick with the dumb idea. But what choice did she have when no one had a better one, and the alternative was an empty box? I don't see the business skill. On the last task, he left his other best pitcher on his team in the UK. He didn't take a grip on his advert, and left it to the least likely suspect. He spent the task marginalising Lauren- so he could claim she did nothing. He didn't take over the presentation entirely himself- even though he seems to be their best salesman. Indeed, he spent most of the task ensuring that someone else was responsible for everything. |
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#42 |
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If I was looking to appoint someone as my business partner to invest my money, he is the clear outstanding candidate.
A leader of men. |
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#43 |
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If Mark was to win it would certainly be a new 'type' of candidate we've never seen win before. Winners have been careless and sometimes unreasonable in the past, but they are never depicted as so overtly manipulative and arrogant. Unless the audience are supposed to be impressed by his tactics?
Despite his sales, I don't think many people finish the episode thinking 'Yes I would want to work with Mark. He'd screw me over good and proper' lol That's not such a good thing when the whole point of the process is to see who would make the best business partner. The edit has barely let up so it's clearly trying to derail Mark ever looking like a serious contender and isn't looking like it's planning on a redemption. Would be interesting if he did win as it would mean the show is accepting of that sort of ruthlessness now, but he really doesn't seem like Sugar's type of person at all. |
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#44 |
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[...] can recall having conversations with friends for ages before the final saying, 'The final two will be Helen and Tom, with Helen winning,' and my friends would say, 'I think Tom might win.' Obviously in that instance they turned out to be right. His edit constantly portrayed him personally in a positive light, with a few exceptions.
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#45 |
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I think it is unfair to say that Tom won purely because of his nail-file patent. Who's to say that he would even have wanted Lord Sugar to get involved with that?
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As a matter of fact, Susan was not rated for quite a lot of the series.
Speak for yourself.
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#46 |
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I really want Mark to stay
... just long enough for Claude Littner to tear him a new one ![]() Yes no candidate comes out of that week well at all . I think Roisin is the winner but that depends on her business idea. I often wonder what happens if you get a bad candidate with a great idea or vice versa. |
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#47 |
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If I was looking to appoint someone as my business partner to invest my money, he is the clear outstanding candidate.
A leader of men. |
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#48 |
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Speak for yourself.
Her edit was designed to make her look naive and foolish for quite a lot of the series, specifically the 'I'm me and you're you' app and 'Are the French very fond of their children?' Of course, in hindsight I can see that that edit was unfair, but back then I wasn't quite as savvy to the bias of the editors as I am now. Obviously when we look back now we see a really fantastic candidate, but at the time she didn't earn a lot of people's respect until around Week 9 or 10. Tom had a better portrayal onscreen. |
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#49 |
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I'm not just speaking for myself!
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#50 |
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Indeed. This is why I said that you should.
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