Team kendra

I am in.

Neither, but I think Kendra came over worse.

I think Edwina was after an argument and Kendra wasn't articulate enough to respond so resorted to childish screaming and shouting. Kendra also came over a bit pathetic bringing age into it in the bush telegraph. Isn't she a 28 year old married mother of two? She's not a child.

It was archetypal 'I am the universe' stuff, of the kind tha sometimes infests facebook. I had one yesterday where someone posted one of those ornamental scrolls saying something like, "No matter if it is your job or other people, if there is something negative in your life, just walk away." And I thought, has this person not experienced teenage children? I mean it was plain odd for the mother of very small children to be declaiming that you must never live your life for other people.

Currie's manner is never modest and retiring, and she could have handled her challenge better, but I have no problem with her challenging per se; that kind of nonsense cries out to be challenged imo. Kendra's reaction was so vicious that it suggested that she has no experience of being challenged. As a matter of fact - and I take on board that in some ways Currie is a dreadful harpy - she handled it rather well, after the initial outburst. Imagine if she had answered back in kind.

And I totally disagree with those who have used the word 'passive aggressive' of EC. If anything, I would criticise her because her initial remarks were a bit more aggressive than they needed to be. 'Passive aggressive' is used when someone uses manipulation: tears, exaggerated expressions of hurt and fear, appeals to other people etc - to get back at someone they either dare not speak to openly or think it would be disadvantageous to speak to openly.

I wonder whether the Team Kendra people are on the young side, and don't like to see an older woman contradicting a young one; I can't honestly see any other reason for supporting her in this scene.



That is surely no one's business other than his. As someone else said, most of us don't leave tiny babies and go off to prance about for weeks at a time away from them. At least Edwina's husband can express a preference.

Why do you think Edwina was 'way out of line'?

I do love a transcript.

I certainly think Kendra got an almost embarrassing amount of comfort and support in the camp itself on the grounds that she is young and pretty. If she had been nearly 70 I really don't think the men would have been fussing round her for an instant.

Yes, absolutely, and Kendra is clearly not used to any kind of argument whatsoever. I have no knowledge of her US tv work, but it would seem that having to stand her ground and justify what she says plays no part in it.

Edwina.

Kendra every day of the week. I'd rather sell my body than my soul. Edwinga is a nasty, heartless person who thinks it is her way or the highway. I LOATHE people with a false sense of superiority and find her behaviour bigoted.

She is a total disgrace IMO.

Kendra

Kendra although her swearing was too much Edwina knew what she was doing

Of course she knew what she was doing. She was disagreeing with something Kendra had just said. Do you imagine she thought, "I bet if I disagree with her she will start shouting and swearing at me"? Because I don't.

She was deliberately looking for an argument overheard Kendra when she was not even part of the conversation, knew which buttons to press and boom more airtime and coverage in the press. I,ve never like Edwina so Team Kendra for me although to be fair she isn't much better.

Neither really as i think they are both pretty dreadful but i can see both sides of this one.

Kendra probably chose her words wrong to express what (I think) she was trying to say. That public o(or even people you knows) opinion shouldn't stop you making your own decisions. I don't think she was saying that it is okay to just selfishly do whatever yopu want to even if it means other people get hurt or suffer as a result.

Edwina should perhaps have queried exactly what she meant rather than pouncing on the statement and picking it apart.

But...Kendra utterly over reacted. she lost whatever moral high ground she had by shouting, swearing, saying that Edwina shouldn't have joined in (as far as i could see it was a general, public conversation in the camp, Edwina didn't appear from behind a rock having eaves dropped on a private heart to heart), and seeming to say that her being younger automatically meant that she was vulnerable and Edwina was 'bullying' her.

Yes she is younger but she is a fully grown adult and expecting to be given preferential treatment and not have an older person challenge your views is as pathetic as Edwina demanding that nobody disagree with her because your should 'respect your elders' no matter what.

Basically Kendra either isn"'t intelligent or emotionally mature enough to properly debate so threw her toys out of the pram.

Maybe somebody should have said that whilst it isn't an age issue, Edwina has decades of debating experience so perhaps should give Kendra a chance to think whether she could express what she was trying to say in a different way rather than just attack her.

Kendra is young, not massively bright and over emotional.

Edwina is mature, intelligent and experienced at debates and manipulating people to her way of thinking.

I am totally team Kendra, not because I am a fan (although I really have thought her quite surprisingly endearing if I'm honest) but because I think she is not on anything like a fair playing field.

Edwina is going to walk all over her but that doesn't necessarily make Edwina the better person.

Ggrrrr!!! I have found my underdog I think.

Yes, I think that's fair. But even so, it wasn't outrageous for Edwina to think that Kendra might be up for a debate on what she was saying. She is not exactly a shy flower, and imo it is reasonable for people happy to broadcast her views to an attentive group to be willing to be challenged on them without acting as if they have been spat at. And it is plain childish for either Kendra or people on here to act as if Edwina butted into a conversation. She was part of the group being addressed, and had every right to disagree.

I do think Kendra came over as very, very spoilt; it is disappointing, because after Gemma we don't need another pampered princess, and she didn't seem the type for the first few days. I suppose that whereas Gemma seemed spoilt and very stupid, Kendra is much more subtle about it; but it can't be good for someone to go straight from school to a billionaire's mansion, and being waited on hand and foot, and then treated as a big media star because of it.

I would be - It was Edwina's delivery that was all wrong. She came across very personal; and judgemental and almost had a childish strop herself on her bed before Kendra laid into her. She more or less accused Kendra of being selfish.

Edwina is very thick skinned and passive aggressive. She nearly broke Gordon Ramsay in Hell's Kitchen

Yes i agree. Whilst i don't blame her for it as Michael seems to have asked her to talk about her life, she was effectively holding court and enjoying the experience. So, if you're going to almost give a monologue on your history and philosophy then you have to expect others to perhaps question or query it and be able to respond in a rational manner rather than immediately attack back in a defensive way. If Edwina wasn't seeing the 'heart' of it then try and find a different way of explaining what you mean, or ask for time to think it through.

But Edwina did continue to pick at the exact wording of what she had said, even when Nadia and Mel had expressed it in a different way.

But then again, Edwina said sorry and that she hadn't meant to upset her fairly soon after Kendra started her tirade and Kendra didn't stop and doesn't seem willing to meet Edwina half way now. But then it is possible she did,'t hear her say it.

Kendra must have had a very 'different' life and i do have some sympathy for that, school, to the 'wtf' experience of living in the Playboy mansion (if she really didn't know sex was part of the deal she was incredibly naive for a 18 year old), constant reality tv and then a marriage break up. But that doesn't mean she has an automatic right to be 'right' and not be challenged.

I've just rewatched it and the "you're a grown up woman picking on a young girl" really rankles with me. She is in her mid twenties, she is a grown woman, she needs to take responsibility and not expect to be cossetted.

Yes Edwina should show her respect, every adult should show each other respect and consideration, you don't automatically get more or less depending on your respective ages.

To be fair, taken literally, Kendra's statement could easily be perceived as selfish. For example, without wishing to go into personal issues, I have recently spent several months caring for my dying mother, and the time i wasn't with her I was having to still be a supportive wife. During that time i wasn't living for myself, i was living for other people, putting their needs before my own. Not a martry or a saint but it had to be done and on the face of it, taken literally, Kendra's comments were the opposite philosophy of that.

But i do think Edwina should have queried it more gently and asked her to explain what she meant rather than attacking (by repeating several times) the statement and then not letting it go when Mel and Nadia did express the 'heart' of it in a different way.

BIB - You can't possibly believe this. Otherwise, you make some good points, though.

I'd say Edwina and Kendra are both pretty obnoxious, albeit in different ways. I must say I was flummoxed to hear that Kendra thinks of herself as a role model. Eh?

Kendra is heading for thirty, she's not some daft young kid with no life experience. Why does she automatically get a 'free pass' for being the less intelligent and articulate of the two women involved?

Edwina is no picnic but Kendra's rant was just disgusting.

I do have to say that i find Kendra's statement that she didn't know sex was part of the deal incredible and interesting in lots of different ways.

I'll admit to knowing little about her so forgive me if I'm asking questions everybody else already knows the answers to.

Even if she was naive and virginal, how could she possibly not have heard of Playboy, the playboy mansion and Hugh Hefner's reputation at 18 to not realise what being invited to move in there would entail? Not having much life experience yourself doesn't make you blind to the world around you.

How did she come to be moving in the social circles to meet Hugh Hefner if she was that innocent and naive?

I have no issues with large age gaps but it seems clear that she didn't meet him, fall in love and embark on a relationship because of an emotional or sexual mutual connection. She met him, was enticed by an oFferred lifestyle and then came to realise that sex was part of the deal if she wanted to continue with that lifestyle. It doesn't mean they didn't grow to have an emotional bond but it is not how it started.

Now i make no judgements about any of that, live and let live and yes her sentiment of needing to be true to yourself and not second guess your decisions because other disapprove (i think that is what she meant) is fine but she can't really hold herself up as a role model and expect not to encounter people who disagree with her or disapprove of the decisions she has made.

I don't actually think Edwina was judging her lifestyle choices or saying she was 'better than her'. She was querying the stated ethos of not taking other people's welfare into consideration when making decisions

But the fact is that many people will (rightly or wrongly) consider themselves morally better than somebody that arguably did choose an affluent lifestyle and then prostitute themselves to keep it.

I think deep down Kendra knows this and it is why she is so defensive.

I'm out.

I suspect Kendra's decision-making has caused her considerable difficulties - and you're right, she is very defensive. What's that thing about "protesting too much"?

Edwina was quite rude in her manner which was unecessary and is what inflammed the situation. However I do agree with her point. If she had made it into a discussion and lost the attitude, not only would there not have been such an outburst, but others would have got what shes trying to say - that its not a weakness to put others first sometimes. I think Edwina was coming from the perspective of the 'me, me, me' attitude where its seen as strength and admired more than traits such as selflessness which is seen as being weak.

Both as bad as each other.

Would 18 year old Kendra have wanted to have an affair with 78 year old Hugh Heffner- retired lorry driver?

No

Would Edwina Currie have had an affair with John Major- bus driver?

No.

Both opportunists who saw what the relationships could do for them.

Quite.

Edwina, purely for the fact that she didn't need to resort to foul language to make her point. Yes no doubt she was baiting Kendra but she is an intelligent woman and saw a flaw in what Kendra said and picked up on it. Kendra couldn't handle the criticism and reacted the way she did because she didn't have an intelligent response. Edwina barely batted an eyelid at Kendra's foul mouthed response.