Santa and Father Christmas are not the same thing, though they often get popularly confused. Im hoping this figure is going to be called by his older name in the special; Father Christmas. That would fit better.

Father Christmas is a pagan figure based on "old Father Time" or "Midwinter man" and is much older and scarier. (I was always afraid of Father Christmas as a child in the 60's,nothing cuddly about him!).He was harsh, like the Winter itself and he was dressed to suggest winter;big coat and boots etc.By inviting him into their houses and feeding him good food and drink they hoped to soften him up and ease the winter conditions.

Santa Claus is based on the life of Bishop Nicholas around 300AD, his generous but anonymous gift giving to children, who became a saint and revered across Europe. His name,Sinter Klaas,was mispronounced into Santa Claus.This figure is the avuncular,ho-ho-ho gift giver we now know, the one Coca Cola put in red.In 1969 when it was feared Santa was more popular than Jesus, the Pope demoted him so the Bishop is just Nicholas now!

Its Father Christmas that is more relevant to our Timelord doctor.
The Doctor who regenerates, Robin of sherwood and Father Christmas all appear in the early mummer plays of England.They go back together along way.

"Twelfth Knight" would have been a good title for the Capaldi Doctor, to commemorate 12th night of christmas, traditionally a time of danger and chaos with everything being topsy turvy under the command of "The Lord of Misrule". After 12th Night the year begins its cycle again with the orderly progression of the year, so 12th Night is time out.

They could do a lot with that idea, since Capaldi is the 12th doctor on the cusp of a new cycle.

Good post.

My husband has played the role of Old Father Christmas in alocal traditional Mummer's Play for the past 35 years. He wears green, not red.
Our play is mentioned in a book published in 1820, in much the same form that we perform it now.

It is disappointing to see that the Christmas Special has gone with a red Coca-Cola 'Santa', not a green-robed Old Father Christmas.

Saint Nick's red garb is not the fault of the Coca-Cola company.

Given that the whole Christmas story is a conflation of many other earlier myths, it seems perfectly natural that our symbols be a little mixed up too.

Quite right - this seems to be an urban myth. Whilst Coca-Cola's 1930s advertising did much to popularise the image of Santa Claus as a jolly, chubby, bearded old man wearing red and white, this description actually goes back to the 1823 publication of "A Visit From St. Nicholas" (aka "The Night Before Christmas"). All the trimmings like the sleigh, coming down the chimney, distributing toys all seem to originate here.

In the mid 1800s illustrations would appear in magazines showing Santa pretty much as we know him today, though the earliest red and white outfit illustration seems to date from the very early 20th century, but still 30 odd years before Coca Cola used the image.

But Father Christmas goes back centuries further, and as other posters have described, was a far more unsettling character.

I had forgotten the green colour outfit of Father Christmas,something to do with the evergreen firs. Thanks for reminding me.Its a hopeful colour, the promise of Spring at the dead of winter.

Doormouse, Does your husband perform the St George Mummer play with the doctor,usually dressed in black with a black bag, who resurrects the dead knight,dragon or king?Its the earliest form of the doctor with regenerative powers,though directed at others, not himself.The doctor character has this power over life and death, can cure anything but not the "love sickness". Ha!

I love those old plays. They are still habitually performed in villages in Ireland for locals.

We perform the Sidmouth Mummers Play. It has seventeen characters, so has the largest cast of any play. We don't have seventeen mummers, so perform an abridged version. We do have St George (ours is called 'Prince George') and he fights the Turkish Knight. Clearly the early mummers used to add contemporary heroes and villains - the 1820 write-up mentions Nelson and Wellington among the heroes - and back in 1820 this was very recent history. King Tippoo is slain by Lord Nelson, and revived by The Doctor!!
We are off to do our tour of the local pubs in a fortnight's time ...... as I am female I do not act, (no girlies allowed ... ) but I play concertina for the processional march from pub to pub and help with costumes, etc

Old Father Christmas is grey-bearded, and usually wears green robes trimmed with brown fur, and a wreath of (silk) holly leaves on his head, and carries a tall staff with ribbons tied onto it, and describes himself as a 'part-time mythical pagan deity!'

History lesson over .....

He was always called Father Christmas when I was a kid, occasionally Santa, but almost never Santa Claus.
Unfortunately like so many other things, the American term (they've never call him anything other than Santa Claus) has almost completely taken over here now.
I can't remember the last time I saw the term "Father Christmas" being used in a British newspaper or magazine, or heard it in an advertisement or British TV programme.

Thanks for that information, Doormouse. Great to hear about living traditions.
My script for the st george play does have a Father Christmas character in it, but there must be lots of regional variation. Thats what makes it so interesting.

Dave-H, this will please you that one TV mag I get actually calls him "Father Christmas" in its preview of the special. it will be interesting to see what they actually do call him in the episode when it airs.

In terms of coca cola and the red suited santa,my information comes from the book by Desmond Morris where he researches all the traditions, and he clearly states its origins in the coca cola company. Pre 1931 the father Christmas costume was quite varied in terms of representing midwinter as Doormouse has described.

In 1931 and American artist, Haddon Sundblom was asked to redesign the costume by coca cola to match the official trade colours or red and white. His design and its use of colour is now the standard costume for Santa.

The other American influence is the reindeer. Their appearance is down to a popular poem by Clement Moore who was a professor of Oriental and Classical Literature in New York, acquainted with Finnish mythology. The poem, "A visit from st Nicholas" in 1822,names the 8 reindeer.In Finnish mythology "Old man winter", wearing a long thick cloak, drives his reindeer down at the herald of the winter snows.He comes down the chimney because traditional Finnish homes were sunk in the ground and the door was also the vent for smoke,on the roof but effectively on the surface too, so the chimney actually was the door too!

Fascinating stuff to unravel!

Even according to Coca Cola themselves, they are not the origins of the red coated Santa. They are the reason the image has been cemented in the public's mind as the image of Santa. But they were not the first to use the rotund, jolly looking fellow to represent him. There are adverts going back as far as 1908 with exactly the same image of Santa - jolly, rotund and wearing red and white - and in 1906 there was a book of fairy stories by Francis Hodgson Burnett published in that December which had a Santa on it who resembles the familiar version in every way, except a longer beard.

Whilst there was a period of overlap that had many iterations of Santa, that had actually stopped before Coca Cola used their advertising - and it would seem that Sundblom was actually using the already standardised version of Santa in his advertising. According to an article from the New York Times that was published in 1927 (before Sundblom created his advertising images) it was very mucha given that Santa wears red:


Lots of research has been done over many years that ultimately turns out to be incorrect. It's really hard to revise an existing book, so it seems your source is out of date!
Last edited by sebbie3000 : 27-11-2014 at 13:18

I think the Americans went in for a 'red' Santa, but Father Christmas in England (and a lot of Europe) wore green until the beginning of the 20th century.

The earliest photo we have of our troupe of mummers is 1905, hand tinted in the photographers studio. The splendidly named Bart Fox (playing Old Father Christmas) is in a green cloak trimmed with brown fur.

Green coat or red, we'll be out on our rounds soon ... six pubs to visit, a pint in every pub (at least) and a taxi home afterwards ....

As OFC says:

'Round-shouldered, grey-headed and tottering I'm got
But I hope Old Father Christmas will never be forgot
For I was at the dawning of the day, and made you all to laugh and play
And I was at the dawning of the morn, and made you all to laugh and scorn.
Whether we rise, tumble or fall, we'll do our best to please you all.'

Happy Christmas!

Yes, it wasnt "standardised" until coca cola spread its image of him in red/white short tunic/trousers with sleep cap. Previously it was hood and long gown and differing colours as stated by doormouse.

Our own seasonal replica of Father Christmas is in long dark robe and long staff.We shall be getting him out tonight as we prepare to decorate.

Sources dont go "out of date" or inaccurate because they are older.
In fact, often older sources are the more accurate.
And as with all research there will be differences.

The point of what I was saying was that it had already overtaken and become the standardised image. As proven in the article in the New York Times that was printed before Coca Cola used the image for their advertising. It was printed in 1927, and claims the red-frocked Santa as being the standardized [sic] image. Your claim that Coca Cola created it is wrong. And that it was for the brand colours is also wrong. If that is what your book claims, then it is also wrong.

You're right, they don't go out of date or become inaccurate because they are older. They are inaccurate because they are inaccurate. But you cannot edit a printed book. And new research that proves the older research incorrect supercedes it. Which is what has happened in this case.

Santa Claus!!!

Check this out::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQCwkkGv2C4

Coca cola did not "create" the image of santa, but after their advertising promotion it became standardised into what we have predominantly now. Thats my understanding from researching it. Before there was much more diversity,ie the green robes,long robes, attached hood instead of bedcap,he carried a staff and wore a crown of fir in some cases.

My sources are not wrong simply because they dont comply with yours. We use different sources and so differ in opinion. Clearly Desmond Morris is not "wrong" and his books are his reputation as a scientist.Other sources agree with his findings.

No one said coca cola "created" the red suited santa, but its the image as drawn by their appointed artist that they promoted. They are responsible however for the standardisation of ONE of the many forms this figure took previously.

LOL'd at the receptionists first line

Same here. I'm nearly 40 and always called him Father Christmas but my kids always say Santa.

I love all the historical details everyone has highlighted.Fascinating stuff

Growing up in the 1970s it was always Father Christmas in our house.I seen to remember Christmas cards then had a green robed figure rather than red.

What an interesting thread - thanks for posting everyone.

Good luck with the Mumming, doormouse.

In our family he will always be Father Christmas. Even my grandchildren call him that. They wouldn't dare call him anything else - he's the one with the presents, and he calls the shots. By proxy through me, of course.

I've bought the eldest grandchild the Raymond Briggs "Father Christmas" book just to reinforce the message.

Did you check out part 3?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BfFF3QlNeg

This is where Jon Pertwee says that we call Santa Claus 'Father Christmas' in England and Santa is offended and explains why.

Father Christmas, be responsible.

Well, whether Santa is standardised or not ,its great to see the variance on this thread and the sharing of ideas.

yes, the Raymond Briggs "Father Christmas" film is a must for children. He is very grumpy in that one!

We just got out our long bearded Father Christmas who stands on the piano. He is in the old dress, firgreen tunic,long hooded cloak in dark red lined with fur and gold holly print,holding a long staff made of oak,carrying a sack of autumn berries/nuts etc.
He doesnt look friendly but we love him!

Doormouse, this is from my script that i used to use when teaching early drama:

Father Christmas opens the St Geaorge Christmas play with:

"Here come I,old Father Christmas,
Welcome, or welcome not,
I hope old Father Christmas
will never be forgot"

Then he says:

"Is there a doctor to be found
all ready,near at hand?
To cure a deep and deadly wound,
And make the champion stand?"

And he ends the play with:

"Now ladies and gentlemen,your sport is ended,
so prepare for the box,which is highly commended.
The box it would speak,if it had but a tongue,
Come throw in your money and think it no wrong".

Happy mumming!
Our 20th century Doctor has a box too,
though blue!

It's the ONE THING that I allow myself to be an old fart about... "We're not bloody American! He's Father Christmas, not poxy 'Santa'!"

My son is bemused.

Except, as pointed out, the Red suit was already being considered as standard in 1927 - in that article I quoted. From the New York Times. Printed well before he was supposed to have standardised it.

For the record, sources can be wrong. When presented with new evidence (I'm not talking about chronologically newer, just evidence that hadn't been seen/used before) a scientist will allow that new evidence to shape and form his hypothesis or theory. This is how things move on.

I used to believe, as you did, that Coca Cola created the image. Then I researched it and found it to not be true. And morte than that, it seemed they had taken the image from an already established view of the character. Until more real up-to-date evidence says otherwise, this is what I'm going with.

Obviously, an image cannot be standardised again years after it is already claimed to be the standard image.

Clara does call him Father Christmas in the CiN clip. I suppose that would be what they are going with perhaps...

Preview advertising refers to “Father Christmas” too. So they are fusing the look of Santa with the name of Father Christmas. Nice synthesis but will he be nasty or nice or both?

Sebbie3000, as Ive said,we are not at variance over facts but over the interpretation of facts and that is perfectly acceptable .However you keep saying “I used to believe, as you did, that Coca Cola created the image” when i have just said “No one said coca cola "created" the red suited santa, but its the image as drawn by their appointed artist that they promoted”

The variance is over this; ” They are responsible however for the standardisation of ONE of the many forms this figure took previously.” I follow this interpretation and you do not, thats all. But there is no right or wrong

There were many variations of costume design until 1931 and the advertising campaign of Coca Cola. The poem of 1823 and cartoonist interpretation of Nast in 1863 coincided with the green gowned Father Christmas of Charles Dickens’ John Leech 1843 illustrated“Christmas Carol”, an image highly popular in UK and depicted on many Christmas cards ( see https://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&s...82BSc#imgdii=_)

The influence of Dickens on Christmas traditions is still evident.

Various sources state “It was not considered as standard in 1927” and “much of the santa claus mythos was not set in stone at the time(1902)”. Thats supported by a range of references from academic to the coca cola company itself.

See 1) https://aydinstone.wordpress.com/201...her-christmas/
2) http://www.timetravel-britain.com/ar...as/santa.shtml
3) http://www.coca-colacompany.com/holi...ay-santa-claus
4)http://www.costumesofnashua.com/CNWe.../SantaSuit.htm

That last reference shows the range of costume,from green to red, available to buy even today.

Even in my childhood (1950's) the traditional Father Christmas costume was not a cadmium red suit but a long dark red cloak with hood. He was more scary and mysterious than the cartoon avuncular version we see today.And thats the version my children met in the caves when they visited him in Ireland. Having said that, I was out yesterday shopping and discovered more variety of santas than ever before...lots of long gowned dark red examples...and also the fir green version. Maybe thats down to things being made in china where they might be less standardised? Whatever, its a good sign because it gives us a choice.

Im not going to carry on a fixated argument here. I just support the view that the standardisation of santa we currently have is mainly down to the popularisation of it by Coca Cola , followed by other advertising that developed with the new media of the day. Its that advertising that reached the masses to popularise the image of santa, an image that coca cola developed to suit their own image, a brand that promotes itself by the same colours red/white. They made the image to fit their own image.

The standardisation is down to coca cola and the new media of advertising a product. This reached more people than a poem or a book. And thats where Ill leave it. You carry on if you want to.

Here he is from "Christmas Carol" 1843
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Leech,1843.jpg