[Thine Wonk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clewsy

Most of that article has come from someone reading this site. Total rubbish and full of non committal words. Let's post on this when it does actually happen.

I don't think the financial times get their news from this forum, I think it's more likely that people on this forum follow what has been happening lately, HWL sale of assets to buy EU Telecoms and Telefonica saying it is considering existing the UK and the O2 brand just like they have in 3 or 4 other counties where they have sold O2 branded businesses.

[omnidirectional]

Lots of reports this morning about Telefonica entering 'early stage' talks with Hutchison.

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...s-to-buy-o2-uk
http://www.cityam.com/207385/china-s...takeover-talks
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-...for-o2-1281077

Let's keep wavejock in our thoughts during this difficult period

[Gigabit]

Yeah I can't think what will happen to O2's 31st Century network in Glasgow. Anything else would be an insult to the consumer.

[eljmayes]

If this were to go through then would Three/O2 have to jettison some of their 4G spectrum?

[Zee_Bukhari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eljmayes

If this were to go through then would Three/O2 have to jettison some of their 4G spectrum?

Possibly, but I doubt some 2100MHz but I don't think any 1800 as O2 don't own any and they both have little 800MHz.

[squawkBOX]

Can someone summarize the current UK network holdings for each band - I forget what everyone holds?

Neither o2 nor Three have any of the 2.6Ghz band and combined they'd only have 2x10Mhz (800Mhz - o2), 2x5Mhz (800Mhz - Three) and 2x10/15Mhz (Three - 1800Mhz) for LTE.

I don't think that puts them ahead of Voda and EE?

[rasseru16]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zee_Bukhari

Possibly, but I doubt some 2100MHz but I don't think any 1800 as O2 don't own any and they both have little 800MHz.

Both O2 & Vodafone do use 1800MHz for some 2G sites.

[sethpet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zee_Bukhari

Possibly, but I doubt some 2100MHz but I don't think any 1800 as O2 don't own any and they both have little 800MHz.

you should check you facts before posting. O2 have 1800mhz as do VF. 5.8mhz paired i think it is.

[enapace]

Combined 3/O2 Spectrum

2x15MHz of 800MHz
2x17.4MHz of 900MHz
2x20.8MHz of 1800MHz after October.
2x25MHz of 2100MHz
10MHz 1900MHz TDD.

The benefit is 2x15MHz of 800MHz it would have to be done by Intraband CA but that is easier than multi band CA. Imagine they would try and refarm the 2x5.8MHz of 1800MHz soon as they could. They likely would only have to give up 2x5MHz of 2100MHz if they had to give up any spectrum.

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by japaul

Sorry but no, the European Commission doesn't defer to national regulators. In Germany, the Federal Cartel Office repeatedly tried to deal with Telefonica's acquisition of E-Plus but were slapped down by the Commission each time.

In Ireland, in which the EC examined the sale of O2 to Three, Comreg the Irish regulator publicly stated that they didn't believe the EC decision sufficiently addressed competition concerns but recognised it was a decision for the EC and not them. See here
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/pub...ComReg1453.pdf

I'm afraid you also have the EE merger process wrong.

The EC have the right to examine any merger or acquisition that has a "European dimension." This is determined mostly by turnover and two UK mobile operators merging will always have a European dimension.

Also Ofcom don't rule on company mergers and acquisitions (although lots of people in this group seem to think they do). At best they will express an opinion or be asked to report on certain aspects but the UK authority is the CMA (OFT/MMC/Competition Commission no longer exist). Possibly BT buying EE could stay with the CMA but might also be looked at by the EC (and BT could request they take it over too).

I have never said the EU wasn't allowed to investigate mergers in their own right. The point I am making is they usually defer to the domestic markets authorities, I am talking on a plural basis as well. Granted in the cases you mention the EC intervened, however this doesn't offer any indication of the outcome from the current talks between Hutchison and Telefonica.

The point I am making is that its very rare the EC will overrule objections from domestic authorities in which a merger applies. OFCOM as the regulator has a duty to ensure competition within the media/telecoms/postal industry. They get the first say on the matter, usually after a consultation and then give their findings. It is on that basis then the automatic referral to the CMA is done, and then the government of the day will have their two pennies worth whilst it is looked at by said authority. If OFCOM/CMA/Govt were against a merger between O2 and Three of any kind, then it is unlikely they will wave it through.

The EC overruling in said process would remain very slim, purely because of political and economical reasons. UK didn't completely devolve competition law to the EU, it still has final say or power of veto over most aspects. The only area where this doesn't apply is in the Finance sector (of which Blair/Brown gave up much sovereignty). Yes you are correct the EC/EU authorities have the right to investigate on their own terms. We have a very strong regulatory system in this country, much more effective than anywhere else in Europe (IMHO).

It might be the case that a Three/O2 merger would be able to resolve any competition concerns raised by the domestic authorities, that much we do not know. I still think it will be challenging for the merger to go ahead, the UK market has only recently adjusted from the last one involving EE.

If you look at this article:

https://gsmaintelligence.com/analysi...rting-gun/348/

or more specifically this image

https://gsmaintelligence.com/images/...rket-share.png

If O2 and Three were to merger it would create another behemoth which would completely distort the market and competition, Vodafone would in essence be pushed out to some extent the market in which they pioneered. Without some drastic measures I think its unlikely a merger between O2 and Three (who would control 38% of the market) would be allowed to proceed.

The mergers in other markets broadly speaking created new entities which were broadly similar in size relative to the others in their country. I am not going to go as far in saying it won't happen. However the measures that will be required for it to proceed would be very very strict and wide ranging. Putting near 80% control of the mobile market in the hands of two (merged) networks would not be in interests of competition at all. If anything I think the EC/EU probably would reject it for said reasons.

The market in the UK I would argue is the most competitive in the western economies. I just can't see a tie up between Three and O2 sailing through that easily.

[Chrysalis]

its exciting until you realise he owns three which is a bit of a nothing network anyway. Three has no 2G coverage and very poor performance. So I dont know what good this will do O2, it will help three by giving it 2G masts but not sure what good it is for O2 customers/ Glad I ditched O2.

[Gigabit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

its exciting until you realise he owns three which is a bit of a nothing network anyway. Three has no 2G coverage and very poor performance. So I dont know what good this will do O2, it will help three by giving it 2G masts but not sure what good it is for O2 customers/ Glad I ditched O2.

[mogzyboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

its exciting until you realise he owns three which is a bit of a nothing network anyway. Three has no 2G coverage and very poor performance. So I dont know what good this will do O2, it will help three by giving it 2G masts but not sure what good it is for O2 customers/ Glad I ditched O2.

O2 customers could look forward to a 21st Century service. I can tell you now, though, that I wouldn't want access to a single O2 mast until they're brought up to an acceptable (MBNL) standard.

[plymouthbloke1974]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

its exciting until you realise he owns three which is a bit of a nothing network anyway. Three has no 2G coverage and very poor performance. So I dont know what good this will do O2, it will help three by giving it 2G masts but not sure what good it is for O2 customers/ Glad I ditched O2.

O2 would access MBNL and have 3G access over 99% of the UK population??

[sethpet]

Again you are all assuming he will merge or keep both companies.

He is a venture capatalist, there is no evidence he would keep both, could very well buy O2 and sell 3

[enapace]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethpet

Again you are all assuming he will merge or keep both companies.

He is a venture capatalist, there is no evidence he would keep both, could very well buy O2 and sell 3

Err I would honestly prefer that he could certainly put the money into O2 that it needs.

[corf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

its exciting until you realise he owns three which is a bit of a nothing network anyway. Three has no 2G coverage and very poor performance. So I dont know what good this will do O2, it will help three by giving it 2G masts but not sure what good it is for O2 customers/ Glad I ditched O2.

LOL, o2 is a second class service compared to three. For most of the UK o2 or vodafone are simply not a viable option for smartphone users. I dont want 2g when i can get national 3g coverage from three or ee

MBNL (50% EE and 50% Three ownership) is by far the best network infrastructure across the UK as a whole, with great backhaul and good 3g performance - even in rural wales and scotland.

[Grayburn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by corf

LOL, o2 is a second class service compared to three. For most of the UK o2 or vodafone are simply not a viable option for smartphone users. I dont want 2g when i can get national 3g coverage from three or ee

I beg to differ, Three where i live and work is useless. I got away from Three after having a 2 year affair with them behind o2's back. Now i'm back with o2 and i get great 4G where i live and work & most places i frequent.

In my opinion and due to the areas i'm in Three is the second class service here. I'm not saying it's not elsewhere but for me it is much like o2 is for you where you are by the sounds of it.

[joeluken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by corf

LOL, o2 is a second class service compared to three. For most of the UK o2 or vodafone are simply not a viable option for smartphone users. I dont want 2g when i can get national 3g coverage from three or ee

MBNL (50% EE and 50% Three ownership) is by far the best network infrastructure across the UK as a whole, with great backhaul and good 3g performance - even in rural wales and scotland.

As rootmetrics recently put it - "internet performance is "currently a two-horse race" with EE and Three scoring 85.5 and 82.7 respectively, putting them well ahead of O2 (68.1) and Vodafone (67.0)."

Report

Or

As PC Advisor/BBG testing found "O2 managed 23%, or just 18 out of a possible 78 tasks. There were no significant differences between 3G and 4G, both scored 23% and experienced long periods with no connectivity at the same time. Most of O2's tests were partially or completely successful at the beginning and end of our journey when we were in or near London and Edinburgh. " LINK

IIRC Three achieved 90%

[Aye Up]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeluken

As rootmetrics recently put it - "internet performance is "currently a two-horse race" with EE and Three scoring 85.5 and 82.7 respectively, putting them well ahead of O2 (68.1) and Vodafone (67.0)."

Report

Or

As PC Advisor/BBG testing found "O2 managed 23%, or just 18 out of a possible 78 tasks. There were no significant differences between 3G and 4G, both scored 23% and experienced long periods with no connectivity at the same time. Most of O2's tests were partially or completely successful at the beginning and end of our journey when we were in or near London and Edinburgh. " LINK

IIRC Three achieved 90%

I think those tests are generally unbiased, however to take their word as gospel in respect coverage and performance is foolish. I agree with some of the sentiment regarding Three, however friends in North London experience a completely different service to me in that it works very weel. I find Vodafone and EE the best networks for me round where I live and work, but this isn't necessarily representative of anywhere else in the UK.

[joeluken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aye Up

I think those tests are generally unbiased, however to take their word as gospel in respect coverage and performance is foolish.

I don't suggest people take it as gospel. The only way to know what works in a specific area and meets your needs at a given time is to try it yourself.

[Aye Up]

I should add relative to my post earlier in the thread

Quote:

EU competition watchdogs were not too happy about an initial takeover plan of O2 Ireland by Hutchison Whampoa last year, but it was accepted following concessions from the Hong Kong firm.

Source

The situation in the UK is different as it would hand near 40% of the market to the newly merged entity, I don't care what the intentions of the vested parties are. That does not bode well for consumers interests. I should think OFCOM will probably oppose the deal as it lessens, the CMA will probably just rubber stamp OFCOM's and Government findings. If this was a merger of two parties similar in size then it may happen, but it isn't. I don't think its necessarily the customer facing end that pose much of a problem, it will be wholesale and how much control they would have in respect of Cornerstone and MBNL. Those two respective schemes were given the go ahead by OFCOM as it doesn't damage competition, allowing networks to share the cost. If one merged network has a 50% share in both respect programs, what is that going to do in the longer term?

I think the OFCOM and the Government will resist it, the outcome will see a substantial reduction in competition here in the UK. With that in mind it doesn't matter what concessions they offer, I should suspect it will be challenged not just by regulators and government, but also consumer groups looking after the interests of people like us.

There are many hurdles and obstacles to jump through, before we even get to the regulators/consumer groups. This will test the EC and our authorities, as a merger of this magnitude hasn't been attempted in a long time.

[Aye Up]

and the plot thickens.......

Quote:

A new report claims that Sky (Sky Broadband) has now entered the ring as a possible merger or collaboration partner for Telefonica’s British mobile network operator sibling, O2 UK. The news comes only a day after Three UK’s parent, Hutchison Whampoa, said that they were also still in talks over a possible £9bn acquisition of O2.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...-talks-o2.html

[omnidirectional]

"Watch Sky Go with Sky Mobile, but only if you happen to be in a big town or city!"

If they really believed in better they wouldn't be flirting with O2 and Vodafone.

[maverickjesus]

Makes sense for Sky to get in the ring, especially given the Vodafone/Liberty Global rumours (Vodafone apparently had Virgin Media's network assets audited just before Xmas, if another forum is to believed!). Sky getting involved with O2 just further reinforces the rumours.

That would leave:

BT/EE
Vodafone/VM
Sky/O2

Which looks pretty sensible. **** knows where that leaves Three though