She lasted longer than Gaga.

Never was.

Actually you might have a point, was Madonna ever considered cool? I personally cannot remember. I don't mean that to sound negative either about her, I think she appealed to a wide selection of age groups, not just those of an age that consider things cool. I never considered her cool but really liked her early music and Like a Prayer/Ray of Light remain as favourite albums.

This thread itself sums up one thing whether she's cool or not. She's still relevant. It's the same now as it was 30 years ago - even approaching 60, whether people love her or hate her, they still talk about her and write about her.

Everyone has different ideas of "cool" (whatever that is). To a fan of pop music she might be an icon. I'm not really a fan of her kind of music though and never found her very interesting as a character (which is my idea of "cool", I suppose). It's just a matter of personal taste.

LIke A Prayer is a decent song though.

Pretty much agree with this. But I'd throw in 'Frozen' as well as 'Like a Prayer' as a decent song.

I've always thought Power Of Goodbye was her best ever song. Pretty much forgotten and underrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHydngA5C4E

Dolly Parton.
She had the "cool" crowd eating out of her palms when she played Glasto recently.

Debbie Harry, Stevie Nicks, Kate Bush.

Would you consider them pop as in the same vain as Madonna? If so you may as well add in the likes of David Bowie.

Madonna’s music has always had a camp quality to it. The majority of her 1980s output was bubble gum pop that hasn’t aged very well at all. Admittedly, she had a few songs in the 1990s that were just about tolerable, but her music over the last decade has been horrific. If the leaked tracks are anything to go by her upcoming album is going to be yet another dated, generic dance album that's less about artistry and more about appealing to teenagers to try and up her low sales. What I can’t understand is why it takes so many people to write such garbage.

A lot of her fans are obsessed to the point that it doesn’t allow for critical thinking. Take for example MDNA. The album is as generic as they come. I know Masterpiece won a Golden Globe, but it’s hardly representative of the rest of the material. If another pop star had released the album I bet a lot of the Madonna fans who praise it would admit that it’s rubbish, but because it’s Madonna they can’t bear to do that. Madonna and her fans are living on past glories.

Her new album will undoubtedly hit number one around the world, but her low sales prove that the general public lost interest years ago while her core fan base keep getting her to number one. She's no longer important to pop music. Yes, she’s sold a lot of records and has recorded quite a few classic pop songs, but surely it’s time she recorded something worthwhile again. Her fans can't stay in the past forever. Her last critically acclaimed album was nearly a decade ago. That isn't that great for such a legend.

Well most acts into their 50's have matured, Madonna is strange in that she still seems to want to appeal relevant to a teenybopper audience.

disagree.... she was at first thought of as abit of a joke, a gimmick, heralded as the next big thing the type of hype that usually gets ridiculed... however she did live upto the hype and by 86-7 she started getting respect from older music fans as well as her target young market. this respect lasted until she reverted to try to be a teenager in the 00's.


exactly.... and madonna had matured well by the late 90's... 'frozen' or 'ray of light' were great tracks.

but when she started cavorting around in her underwear as a middle aged mother, it smacks of desperation like a sad divorcee trying to recapture their long lost youth.

I'm surprised given Madonna notorious bandwagon jumping credentials she isn't trying copy the Adele blueprint and aim at more mature audience. After all a lot of the throwaway EDM/pop acts haven't been selling that well album wise recently - including the last two Madge albums. She's proved albeit briefly that she could create a more mature sound with 'Ray of Light' - and it felt like a popular (both in terms of commercial and critical) period for her.

Given "American Life" was an attempt at a more mature album and bombed maybe that scared her off that route again. Admittedly American Life suffered from a shitty lead single and the worst Bond theme song ever, but the album as a whole while no "Ray of Light" isn't as bad as those two songs would lead you to believe.

Imo, Madonna was cool (whatever that means) from 1984 to 1990 and then she went down the 'adult' route which put people off her and had a brief flash of coolness again in the ROL era!

Madonna always divided opinion even in her early years. The one thing Madonna was always good at is getting people to talk about her positive or negative. Madonna's always had negativity in the media and in public perception because she pushes people's buttons. The one factor Madonna can't change is her age so it doesn't matter what she does she is always going to the comments of "acting her age", "jumping on the bandwagon" and "desperation". It's an argument she won't win or change the viewpoint of what you should do at a certain age or type of music she should make. No other female artist has had such longevity as a successful artist at the top of her game so you have no realistic comparisons. Yes there are other female artists who have had successful careers spanning over a longer period Cher, Tina etc but none of them the height of success at the same level or working consecutively for thirty years. The comment about Kate Bush still being cool is more to do with the fact she had a 20 year hiatus neither releasing or creating any music.
Madonna is never realistically going to appeal to mass young people anymore due to the fact she is 55 at the same time time she is not going to have that it's cool for a young person to listen to her earlier music as she doesn't have the kudos of retiring from music or being on a hiatus. What Madonna does however have is a loyal fan base a huge back catalogue of classic hits that no matter what she will always remain the one of the most successful female artists worldwide regardless of any future success or failures. She will also always be be able to command big tours as well as high prices due to her iconic status.
Musically she has always said that she will continue making music as long as she is happy and why shouldn't she. Due to her status she gets to work with whoever she wants to, the current popular producers etc if that's jumping on the bandwagon or perceived as being desperate the so what? Personally I think it's more about doing what she enjoys doing and having the opportunity to do it with the best in the business at this moment in time.
So in my view Madonna is still cool and will always be. It's what people's perception of cool is. How can a female who has been constantly been under media and public scrutiny for over 30 years, gave birth to 2 children adopted another 2. Have one of the most successful music careers in the world selling over 350 million records. Supported, worked and donated millions to various charities. Been one of the first people in the 80's in public eye to stand up against AIDS at a time when most in the media were more worried about how it would effect there career. Speak her mind against oppression, religion, politics etc regardless of how others perceive her or what impact it has on her public perception. To me that's cool.

obviously adele is a very different artist to Madonna as her USP is her voice whereas Madonna's was her looks and sexuality. Madonna doesn't have the type of voice to pull off adele style tracks convincingly

madonnas done the same thing for the last 30 years now so it's unlikely she's going to change and do something different. as she relies on other people to create music for her, she could quite easily do so but would perhaps alienate and lose her core fanbase, whereas by simply picking recent dance/pop writers/producers that make music that fits her general mold, she can keep releasing stuff that fits her formula

the pet shop boys were mentioned earlier, I think they are a good example of a band who were initially great and wrote some great tracks, and keep on making similar sounding material, but the writing isn't the same. the last album was good to a degree, but it lacked any kind of hit/classic lyrics/songs like the past. the same can be easily said for many long established artists, whether bowie, macca, stevie wonder, etc. however if you keep on changing writers and producers you keep getting fresh blood who haven't ran out of good ideas, so the general formula of what she does works. why this doesn't or hadn't worked so well for other artists I'm not so sure. perhaps it was the artists making the wrong choice of choosing writers/producers who didn't work well for them

in regards to someone who perhaps is still cool in advancing years who could be a comparison to Madonna, you have grace jones. she hasn't done much in a while and it was a big gap between her last album and the one before it, but her sound befits her age well, although of course she sells considerably less than Madonna

so from the artists perspective, do you want to make good music that doesn't sell and few people are interested in, or keep doing what you've been doing which sells reasonably well and pays the bills

to the OP, you say "do you remember when Madonna was cool?" - when was the last time you consider Madonna to be cool?

I think being cool is subjective, but I've never considered Madonna to be a "cool" artist or one that was ever considered "cool" by large by others. she was more popular at a certain time, but I wouldn't necessarily say she was cool at that time. "cool" is something usually aimed more at indie or underground or up coming acts and few people would have known Madonna at those stages, with lucky star or holiday etc, hit tracks on a major label with worldwide marketing being the first time most of the older fans would have came across her music

kylie on the other hand was different. her early albums were exceptionally uncool, then just before her deconstruction records period she became cool to a degree, but not in a way a lot of people would admit to, or admit to listening to her, and then she was considered cool when she joined an indie dance label offshoot and dated Michael hutchens, and her sales declined. she recovered exceptionally well to go on to much bigger success. with her b side tour and orchestral album and live shows she's retained her cool factor much better. her last album was poor, but she's had up and downs before so she could easily return with a decent album and be back making hits again. she still also looks great so can pull off being sexy in videos and perhaps relate better to a younger audience, even if she's old enough to be their mother. Madonna just can't do that anymore and hasn't been able to do it for a good decade now, so with the pop music business being very focused on style and looks it's an area she now struggles to keep up with

- Madonnas USP is certainly not her voice, but it also never was just her look or sexuality. There is much more to her as an artist than that, her creativity, ideas, imagery, the way she pushes people's buttons etc.

- Her music is mostly dance pop oriented, but that doesn't mean she does the same thing for 30 years. When you listen to her debut, Like a Prayer, Erotica and Ray of Light, you can see how much she has evolved.

- Madonna doesnt't have music created for her, she is creating music. When she works with producers and writers, they don't write for her, they write with her and together they work on her ideas about the album. Maybe that's why it worked for her, don't you think?

- Madonna wants to work with the best producers and writers. Can you blame her? Every artist would work with the bests if he could.

- Why do you think that an artist should sound his age? Why should it matter? How can you even tell how old is the musician when you listen to a new instrumental song? The only thing that matters is if the music is good or not imo.

- Grace Jones is hardly a high profile artist like Madonna who is trying to maintain her mainstream appeal. You can't compare them.

- It's Michael Hutchence, hun.
And its funny how you think that Madonna was never cool, yet Kylie was. I for example think that their career pats are very similar. Both had their ups and downs, some of their eras were cool, some weren't, some suck and some are brilliant.

- I listen also to a lot of underground and alternative stuff, but it doesn't mean it's always cool. It can be, but so can the mainstream stuff. I think that "cool" is very subjective and down to personal taste anyway.

- Kylie is also about 10 years younger than Madonna, and as soon as she starts to look her age, she will probably struggle too, ageism is everywhere. It's disgusting.

its not ageist to expect a middle aged mother to produce music more befitting of her position in life... its common sense. im 57, just a couple of years older then madonna, ive changed in the last 30 years as should everyone. we mature, our experiences change our aims, goals, tastes. and true artists mature, they change as their life experiences impact on them, plus they/we/i am getting older.

older people arent the same as young people with a few wrinkles and extra pounds, outlooks on life are very different. overall i like madonna, i do think shes been a great pop star, i dont like her more recent material and i think its unbecoming of her to act the way she has for reasons stated.

But that's where I generally disagree. Older people are pretty much the same person as when they were younger with wrinkles and a few extra pounds. People talk about maturing and changing, but a lot of that is wishful thinking. For better or worse, people are who they are. Who you are is actually determined by experiences quite early in your life and even genetics.

I was not talking about music, but look. As long as a female pop star has youthful image as Kylie or JLo still manage to keep, she is accepted. But when they start to show their age, radio stations stop to play them no matter how good, bad, mature or immature their music is. Music doesn't matter to them, they are gladly playing utter shit if the pop star is in, you know. That's what I was referring to.

Madonna and Kyle may both use sexuality in their visual presentation, but they use it very differently. Madonna's use of sexuality has never been in the conventional sense of trying to get people turned on by looking at her and wanting to have sex with her. Kylie has used it more of the conventional sense of looking cute or conventionally pretty. So it doesn't really matter that she is older because she is not trying to be sexually attractive in the conventional way. Look at her current shoot for Interview magazine which is getting a lot of press. It's sexual but in a more unconventional creative artistic way, almost like a performance artist may use nudity in their work. A lot of her nudity and sexual images appeals to a female audience who see it as empowerment and women owning their own bodies and sexuality, not to a heterosexual male audience who want to sleep with her. Madonna is not struggling to keep up in a visual sense. Her visuals have always been amazing, fascinating and cutting edge if not conventionally beautiful even if sometimes the music is more mainstream pop which people may or may not like. I don't think any of Kylie's photoshoots have had the same cultural or artistic impact.
I'm not a huge follower of Kylie, but the only time she tried to be cool was with Impossible Princess, which the public generally rejected. Kylie isn't cool, but the public doesn't want her to be. They want to her to be a cute fun, slightly cheesy but super nice pop star which she does well.
Madonna appeals to a far different sensibility generally which is more cool. She appeals to people who are different, who feel they don't fit into society and generally has a darker feel to a lot of her imagery. If you look past the pop feel of her songs, there is fundamental sadness and melancholy to some of her best songs, whereas Kylie is more lighthearted and fun. The dark sad undercurrent and unconventional imagery of Madonna makes her much cooler than Kylie.

A lot of radio stations have decided that they are not going to play artists over a certain age. It doesn't matter to them how good or how youthful they look. Radio doesn't play a lot of Kylie or JLo these days either. If you're famous, people know how old you are even if you may look younger than your age. Radio has decided we are not going to play people over 40. Older artists have to rely on the fan base they already have and through touring. Radio just isn't a winning strategy for them.

Oh, so there is an expiration date already?
Then it's even worse than I thought