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Do you remember when Madonna was cool?


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Old 09-12-2014, 11:46
Rae_Amury
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i think perhaps you need to get your eyes checked, as if you read what i said, you'll see i never said that
Your own words:

madonnas done the same thing for the last 30 years now so it's unlikely she's going to change and do something different.

what she has done differently is evita, but that was 20 odd years ago. personally I couldn't stand it, but it was different
Thats why I have asked if "Evita was the only different project she did according to you and everything else she did sounds the same?", hun, to make sure it's not what you mean, because that would be BS.

i never said she ran out of ideas so why pose that question to me?
Oh dear... It was a rhetorical question, obviously.

Im not some stupid fan who is kissing her ass. I know her last two albums were stale and thats why I think she run out of ideas and lost the touch. The fact the number of people involved in creating her last albums increased is also a sign of that imo.
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Old 09-12-2014, 13:21
Rae_Amury
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Here is our previous discussion in this thread, because you really like to deny the things you have said here:

she relies on other people to create music for her
Madonna doesnt't have music created for her, she is creating music. When she works with producers and writers, they don't write for her, they write with her and together they work on her ideas about the album.
really? according to the credits it seems other people write/produce and play the instruments
She is credited on almost every song on her albums (excluding soundtracks).
for playing the instruments? i think once you take my advice of an eye check you'll be able to see that's not the case at all
So again, Madonna is creating her own music. She is credited as a writer and producer on most of her songs. She is the creative mind behind most of her songs including her huge hits. Yes, she is working with producers who help her to evolve her ideas. She has an idea about the sound she wants to achieve and thats how she choses the producers. There is nothing wrong with it.

The albums widely considered her best - Ray of Light and Like a Prayer - were created just by her and one producer. Ray of Light was written and produced by her and Orbit, Like a Prayer was writen and produced by her and Leonard.

As for instruments, Madonna plays some, she knows the basics what is enough for her to compose music, but she knows that she is far from being good. Thats why she leaves it to pro musicians. Thats how many artists work, its a common practice.

what visuals did Madonna create? can you give some examples? or do you mean the visuals that other people created for her? such as the photographers, make up artists, stylists, photoshoppers, etc etc etc?
It seems to me that you dismiss her as completely manufactured and think that everything around her -her music and image- is not her creation but of other people around her. Thats not true. Just because she works with producers, stylists and directors doesnt mean she isnt the creative mind behind it. She comes up with concepts and ideas and works with other creative people on their execution and improvement, while they add their fair share of ideas to the projects. But thats how it should be imho.

And I was curious about why you ignored when I asked if you really think Kylie and Madonna deserve ageist treatment as middle aged women for acting sexy, but after reading this comment by you:

did you know some people like granny porn? some like teens, some like fat women, others like all sorts of other things. Madonna could be catering for the folk who like granny porn. maybe she's smart as I can't think of any other pop stars catering to the granny porn market
I have the answer.

Its useless to continue this argument. I rest the case.
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Old 09-12-2014, 13:36
unique
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Here is our previous discussion in this thread, because you really like to deny the things you have said here:
.
wrong. in fact I refer you back to my previous posts to prove I'm correct

which, as you can perhaps see now, I didn't say " So Evita was the only different project she did according to you and everything else she did sounds the same?" - did I?


Thats why I have asked if "Evita was the only different project she did according to you and everything else she did sounds the same?", hun, to make sure it's not what you mean, because that would be BS.
so you asked why I said something I didn't say, but I still don't understand why you you asked why I said something I very clearly didn't say




Oh dear... It was a rhetorical question, obviously.
obviously? considering that's not the only thing you say that has a question mark after it, suggesting I said something I didn't, no it's not obvious at all

but at least that's it cleared up that I didn't say things that you may have suggested I said
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Old 09-12-2014, 13:54
soulboy77
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Admit it, Madonna is deeply uncool nowadays. I remember a time when you could put on one of her albums and not feel embarrassed about listening to it....
By that definition she was never cool as no one I knew would ever put a Madoona album on to play to their friends.

In my book once she become big commercially and her tracks were played to death on the radio then that lost any vestige of Madonna being seen as a cool artist. Being popular is not the same thing as being cool though some posters seem to be confusing the two.
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Old 09-12-2014, 14:40
mushymanrob
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Well that wasn't really my point. It was the fact that this thread is like oh she's over..and Hung Up was Proof she comes back from commercial disappointments..thats all
did somebody say her career is over?... anyway...
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Old 09-12-2014, 16:57
Quixotic
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I think the casual Madonna fan and member of the general public would prefer to listen to her pre-Millennium music than anything she's recorded in the last ten years. She no longer brings anything new or exciting to pop music. She’s regressed with every album since 2005. The truth is she's now classed as a heritage artist. I don't understand why so many of her fans find this tag insulting. It happens to every band and singer. She's not above it. A lot of teenagers and people in their early twenties don't care about her or what she's doing. I don’t think it matters how many young pop stars and rappers she collaborates with. She's old news to a lot of the younger people out there. They see her as an old pop star who's releasing generic dance music while stripping on stage. A lot of her older fans have no doubt moved on as well. Do you think everyone who liked Cher in the 1980s and 1990s still cares about what she's doing? What about Elton John? The Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

Madonna's still a big draw on the tour circuit, but her days of being a major force on the charts are over, in fact they've been over in the US for a good ten years now, especially on the singles chart. Her albums still top the charts, but there's no denying the sales of her last two albums and the Celebration compilation album were disappointing. Same goes for their longevity on the charts. It’s a bit depressing when a Lionel Richie album can go Platinum in the US, but a Madonna album can’t. Hard Candy still hasn't been certified Platinum six years on. Despite weak reviews and no hit single, No Line on the Horizon by U2 has been certified Platinum in the US. It's also sold an estimated five million copies worldwide. Hard Candy and MDNA have sold that many copies combined. Chances are U2's new album would've gone Platinum had it not been given away free.

Madonna's built up a loyal fan base over the last 30 years, and it’s that fan base who continues to get her to #1. You only have to look at how many copies MDNA has sold in the US since its opening week nearly three years ago (around 150,000) to know that the general public didn't give a toss about the album. The Super Bowl and the album/ticket bundle definitely helped MDNA out in its opening week. And I’m sure most people are aware that nearly all of Madonna's singles have performed poorly in the UK over the last five years while nearly all of her singles over the last ten years have flopped in the US. I’m not stupid enough to say she will never score another big hit because she probably will, but her days of hitting the top ten with every single from every album are long over.

And the people who insist that Madonna’s most recent albums are just as acclaimed as her past ones are delusional. She’s had one critically acclaimed album since Music in 2000, and that was Confessions. The critical census for American Life was that it was a well-intentioned record, but not one that was particularly well-executed. People didn’t care about Madonna being political or really serious which is why the album had poor sales in comparison to Music. It's also why she camped herself up for Confessions. As for Hard Candy and MDNA, they had very mixed reviews and disappointing sales. She hasn’t released anything important in pop music for nearly ten years. I don’t care how many countries MDNA hit number one in. It disappeared without a trace within months.

Maybe if she actually stopped going through the motions, grew up a little and stopped playing catch up with singers half her age she might actually release something of relevance again so her fans don’t have to keep bringing up past accomplishments all of the time. My problem with a lot of her fans is they act as though she’s above criticism. She isn’t. Deal with it. She’s a marginally talented pop star who has many other people to thank for her career.

I actually think Rebel Heart and Wash All Over Me were leaked on purpose to give fans a glimpse at what they can expect from the new album. It also gave Madonna the chance to have a rant and rave in the press about her "broken heart". And I don't think Ryan Tedder claiming Madonna's new album is her best for years is much to get excited about. I remember several people raving about MDNA before that was released.

I really need to steer clear of Madonna discussions, ha ha. I can't stop myself once I get started.
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Old 09-12-2014, 17:13
Fanntastik
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Madonna has never been cool. Popular yes but cool? Nope.

She's nothing but a heritage act these days and there's nothing wrong with that. Her tours will continue to do well but she is never going to be huge with her albums and singles again. It's been a decade since she made a decent album.
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Old 10-12-2014, 19:48
vauxhall1964
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Madonna has never been cool. Popular yes but cool? Nope..
That's not true (unless your definition of cool is synonymous with 'obscure' which of course would be wrong).

She was cool at the start of her career when she played the Hacienda (Jan. 1984) and was on the cover of the Face and ID magazine (1985 and 1984). That honour wasn't given unless you were considered 'cool'. The fact she was given covers in the 90s on the NME, GQ, Interview, etc showed she maintained a degree of 'cool'. All that's gone now though.
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Old 10-12-2014, 20:29
babelogue
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I think the casual Madonna fan and member of the general public would prefer to listen to her pre-Millennium music than anything she's recorded in the last ten years. She no longer brings anything new or exciting to pop music. She’s regressed with every album since 2005. The truth is she's now classed as a heritage artist. I don't understand why so many of her fans find this tag insulting. It happens to every band and singer. She's not above it. A lot of teenagers and people in their early twenties don't care about her or what she's doing. I don’t think it matters how many young pop stars and rappers she collaborates with. She's old news to a lot of the younger people out there. They see her as an old pop star who's releasing generic dance music while stripping on stage. A lot of her older fans have no doubt moved on as well. Do you think everyone who liked Cher in the 1980s and 1990s still cares about what she's doing? What about Elton John? The Rolling Stones? I doubt it.

Madonna's still a big draw on the tour circuit, but her days of being a major force on the charts are over, in fact they've been over in the US for a good ten years now, especially on the singles chart. Her albums still top the charts, but there's no denying the sales of her last two albums and the Celebration compilation album were disappointing. Same goes for their longevity on the charts. It’s a bit depressing when a Lionel Richie album can go Platinum in the US, but a Madonna album can’t. Hard Candy still hasn't been certified Platinum six years on. Despite weak reviews and no hit single, No Line on the Horizon by U2 has been certified Platinum in the US. It's also sold an estimated five million copies worldwide. Hard Candy and MDNA have sold that many copies combined. Chances are U2's new album would've gone Platinum had it not been given away free.

Madonna's built up a loyal fan base over the last 30 years, and it’s that fan base who continues to get her to #1. You only have to look at how many copies MDNA has sold in the US since its opening week nearly three years ago (around 150,000) to know that the general public didn't give a toss about the album. The Super Bowl and the album/ticket bundle definitely helped MDNA out in its opening week. And I’m sure most people are aware that nearly all of Madonna's singles have performed poorly in the UK over the last five years while nearly all of her singles over the last ten years have flopped in the US. I’m not stupid enough to say she will never score another big hit because she probably will, but her days of hitting the top ten with every single from every album are long over.

And the people who insist that Madonna’s most recent albums are just as acclaimed as her past ones are delusional. She’s had one critically acclaimed album since Music in 2000, and that was Confessions. The critical census for American Life was that it was a well-intentioned record, but not one that was particularly well-executed. People didn’t care about Madonna being political or really serious which is why the album had poor sales in comparison to Music. It's also why she camped herself up for Confessions. As for Hard Candy and MDNA, they had very mixed reviews and disappointing sales. She hasn’t released anything important in pop music for nearly ten years. I don’t care how many countries MDNA hit number one in. It disappeared without a trace within months.

Maybe if she actually stopped going through the motions, grew up a little and stopped playing catch up with singers half her age she might actually release something of relevance again so her fans don’t have to keep bringing up past accomplishments all of the time. My problem with a lot of her fans is they act as though she’s above criticism. She isn’t. Deal with it. She’s a marginally talented pop star who has many other people to thank for her career.

I actually think Rebel Heart and Wash All Over Me were leaked on purpose to give fans a glimpse at what they can expect from the new album. It also gave Madonna the chance to have a rant and rave in the press about her "broken heart". And I don't think Ryan Tedder claiming Madonna's new album is her best for years is much to get excited about. I remember several people raving about MDNA before that was released.

I really need to steer clear of Madonna discussions, ha ha. I can't stop myself once I get started.
I'm a huge Madonna fan since 1989 and pretty much agree with every word of that.
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Old 10-12-2014, 22:30
Gigi4
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It's one thing to say you don't like her recent music, it's another thing to say she's minimally talented. I'm a Madonna fan and it's not that she can't be criticized. It's more that even people who claim to be her fans always say oh, she's isn't talented. That makes us Madonna fans very defensive. What other artist who has been as successful as long as she is, is doubted on a talent level? Most other artists work with other people and need them to have success, but their talent is not doubted in the same way that hers is. How can someone achieve the length of success she has and not have talent? It makes no sense.
People who think she just does generic music and strips on stage clearly haven't listened to all of her recent albums or even been to her shows. There's a lot more to it than that.
People talk about her declining sales but she actually does a lot better than almost any artists her age. But people expect her to have the same success in her twenties which just isn't possible. The comparison to Lionel Richie is not fair. His platinum album was not an album of new songs like Madonna records. It was country reworkings of his greatest hits. I'm sure she could sell a lot of records if she redid her older hits, but she chooses not to do that and to try to move forward and create new music whether people like it or not.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:47
dearmrman
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It's one thing to say you don't like her recent music, it's another thing to say she's minimally talented. I'm a Madonna fan and it's not that she can't be criticized. It's more that even people who claim to be her fans always say oh, she's isn't talented. That makes us Madonna fans very defensive. What other artist who has been as successful as long as she is, is doubted on a talent level? Most other artists work with other people and need them to have success, but their talent is not doubted in the same way that hers is. How can someone achieve the length of success she has and not have talent? It makes no sense.
People who think she just does generic music and strips on stage clearly haven't listened to all of her recent albums or even been to her shows. There's a lot more to it than that.
People talk about her declining sales but she actually does a lot better than almost any artists her age. But people expect her to have the same success in her twenties which just isn't possible. The comparison to Lionel Richie is not fair. His platinum album was not an album of new songs like Madonna records. It was country reworkings of his greatest hits. I'm sure she could sell a lot of records if she redid her older hits, but she chooses not to do that and to try to move forward and create new music whether people like it or not.
Obsessive is the word you are looking for, like the MJ fans. Seriously who cares what others think, and why the need to get defensive about her.
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Old 11-12-2014, 12:12
Gigi4
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Obsessive is the word you are looking for, like the MJ fans. Seriously who cares what others think, and why the need to get defensive about her.
Yes, but why can't people defend their favourite artist from a musical talent level? Why does that make them obsessive? Michael Jackson is quite different from Madonna in the criticism of them. Mj's talent was and is rarely questioned even though he worked with a lot of different producers and musicians. He's almost universally acclaimed as a musical and video genius. Most of the criticism of MJ was more of his bizarre personal life including his relationship with young boys. Madonna's personal life and persona is a lot more normal and down to earth than MJ's. MJ's fans seem to want to ignore the actual factual basis for people's criticism of his personal life which makes them seem bizarre. I don't think it's obsessive to say I think a certain artist whom I enjoy is actually talented especially when there's a huge body of work that's been successful over 30 years. In fact, I find there are people who are obsessed with Madonna in the opposite way tearing her down and endlessly criticizing her in the way most people aren't with a lot of other artists. I would think if you don't like someone you would ignore them, but there seem to be people who are devoted to criticizing Madonna non-stop but somehow those people aren't seen as obsessed, but just those of us who want to say heh, she actually does have talent as a singer and a songwriter are the crazy obsessed ones for some reason.
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Old 11-12-2014, 12:17
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Madonna was cool around 1984. If you had one of her records you would be popular with the other kids. I didn't have one - I just had obscure non-charting psych singles from the 60's (played on a valve portable) from an aunt who used to work in a record shop and kept what did not sell. Eventually I saved up for a Bananarama 7", but it was too little to late. You can guess my level of coolness/popularity...
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Old 11-12-2014, 13:04
dearmrman
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Yes, but why can't people defend their favourite artist from a musical talent level? Why does that make them obsessive? Michael Jackson is quite different from Madonna in the criticism of them. Mj's talent was and is rarely questioned even though he worked with a lot of different producers and musicians. He's almost universally acclaimed as a musical and video genius. Most of the criticism of MJ was more of his bizarre personal life including his relationship with young boys. Madonna's personal life and persona is a lot more normal and down to earth than MJ's. MJ's fans seem to want to ignore the actual factual basis for people's criticism of his personal life which makes them seem bizarre. I don't think it's obsessive to say I think a certain artist whom I enjoy is actually talented especially when there's a huge body of work that's been successful over 30 years. In fact, I find there are people who are obsessed with Madonna in the opposite way tearing her down and endlessly criticizing her in the way most people aren't with a lot of other artists. I would think if you don't like someone you would ignore them, but there seem to be people who are devoted to criticizing Madonna non-stop but somehow those people aren't seen as obsessed, but just those of us who want to say heh, she actually does have talent as a singer and a songwriter are the crazy obsessed ones for some reason.
Though I would disagree with you regarding her singing...which isn't great by any stretch of the imagination...okay voice at best, you could have summed everything up with that one sentence....didn't need the rest.
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Old 20-12-2014, 22:05
Chris Mark
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"People think they will wake up one day and I'll be gone. But I'm never going away."

I do love her attitude.
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Old 21-12-2014, 12:37
PaulJoseph22
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Yeah I remember, every day, she is cool. The new tracks are amazing.
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Old 21-12-2014, 12:53
Sereniity
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Right at this moment, Living for Love is number 1 on iTunes in 38 countries.

Where is the op and all those others who insisted Madonna's best days where behind her I wonder?
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Old 21-12-2014, 13:01
PaulJoseph22
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Right at this moment, Living for Love is number 1 on iTunes in 38 countries.

Where is the op and all those others who insisted Madonna's best days where behind her I wonder?
Indeed, what a result for Queen M. Haters gonna hate.......you can't take her success away from her and the enjoyment she has given us over the years...xxxx
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Old 21-12-2014, 15:34
gart81
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Right at this moment, Living for Love is number 1 on iTunes in 38 countries.

Where is the op and all those others who insisted Madonna's best days where behind her I wonder?
Here here
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Old 21-12-2014, 17:15
dearmrman
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Right at this moment, Living for Love is number 1 on iTunes in 38 countries.

Where is the op and all those others who insisted Madonna's best days where behind her I wonder?
Out of interest is she up against any other major artists at the moment, whose songs haven't been out for a while already?
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Old 21-12-2014, 17:38
Cloudy2
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If I'm reading itunes correctly Ghosttown and Rebel Heart are both in the UK top 10. But I don't expect them to stay there that long.
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Old 21-12-2014, 21:11
Fanntastik
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Right at this moment, Living for Love is number 1 on iTunes in 38 countries.

Where is the op and all those others who insisted Madonna's best days where behind her I wonder?
MDNA went to number 1 on iTunes in 50 countries or so too.

Wait until it's actually out and the sales #s are out too.
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Old 26-12-2014, 22:39
mr muggles
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I guess I completely misunderstood the sex book when I read it

and nile Rodgers recent comment about Madonna asking why he didn't try to shag her when everyone else did has nothing to do with the conventional sense either?




oh. I thought it was just the same myself. I feel ashamed for buying a book of naked photos of Madonna for the wrong reasons



so help me understand why she released a book with fully naked photos of herself, called "sex" and the most recent topless shots that have been appearing online the last few days?

did you know some people like granny porn? some like teens, some like fat women, others like all sorts of other things. Madonna could be catering for the folk who like granny porn. maybe she's smart as I can't think of any other pop stars catering to the granny porn market



so if you select certain photos you can state to which demographic each appeals to and the reasons they were taken?

even the reasons between the model and photographer can vary between in regards to their ideas for a shoot



what visuals did Madonna create? can you give some examples? or do you mean the visuals that other people created for her? such as the photographers, make up artists, stylists, photoshoppers, etc etc etc?



as far as I'm concerned this is completely to do with the photographers, stylists and artists etc, not the model in the photograph




does she? unfortunately she doesn't pull it off. the rolling around in a leotard all those years ago was the nail in that coffin



is that why she sells millions of records? because they all feel different? except this ultimately means they are all far more similar than they thought

this is like the idea of emo/alternate where they think they "dress to be different" yet end up yet another tribe all looking the same

Madonna makes commercial music for a mass market, with videos and photoshoots and everything else all around it. she's as different as pepsi cola



I didn't get the melanchonic feeling from holiday. I guess I just don't understand Madonna after 30 odd years of listening. i'll have a listen to express yourself whilst rereading the sex book to see what I missed
I've not been on DS for ages, this is hilarious! Madonna is now drifting into Mommie Dearest territory. I think she channeled Faye Dunaway when was living over here. Gigi4 did make a point about AC DC though. Men get away with musical murder, whilst the women get a far bumpier ride.

Anyway, theres STILL HOPE FOR FEMALE ARTISTES OVER 50!!!

Chaka Khan
Kate Bush
Joni Mitchell

Madonna, focus on crafting GOOD songs, that's all you need to do. The imagery is just plain boring now.
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Old 26-12-2014, 23:14
boysforpele
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disagree the imagery is still amazing ...the art for rebel heart with the string over the face ...has captured many peoples interest ....
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Old 26-12-2014, 23:38
chrisqc
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Madonna cool around the justify my love sex book era
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