Made me realise that from 10's point of view hes saved galifrey it does make me giggle when 10 is discussing the time war in this two parter and all it makes me want to do is scream "but its safe! All 12 of you locked it away! no atchually All THIRTEEN of you did!! the time lords are safe in another universe"

Ten can't remember the events.

Why choose The End of Time, in particular? Every previous reference to the destruction of Gallifrey is now put in a new light by the events in The Day of the Doctor.

How did u manage to rewatch it ?
I thought it was self indulgent crap and further proof of RTD losing his marbles

It isn't actually... Because those events happen just before the events of the Day of the Doctor... It's the failed plan of the High Council the War Council refer to... and he doesn't remember and it's a bit timey wimey as it's debatable whether he originally destroyed them but then changes his mind...

But that doesn't make sense. When Rassilon and co are having their discussion in TEOT, they already know that the Doctor has the moment. When the Time Lords in DOTD have their discussion about the council's plan having ''already failed'' it is only after that that the Doctor steals the moment.


Completely agree.

Damn continuity errors... Ok... Headcannon rewrite...

Just cuz they knew the High Council had plans of their own doesn't mean that they knew about the Moment being stolen. They were planning to destroy time and let everyone else die, so its unlikely they kept the others in the loop.

You could argue that Steven Moffat's Blink was self indulgent crap and he lost his marbles with Let's Kill Hitler. And completely left all his writing skills at home with The Doctor, The Widow & The Wardrobe.

Can we please move away from all this Moffat vs RTD crap? RTD wrote some rubbish and SM has written some rubbish. MOVE ON FOR F.S.!

Except only your post has turned it into Moffat vs RTD.

The post you quoted merely gave their opinion on the writing of an episode which this thread is about.

The End of Time was just awful, and worse still it was awful whilst it had a massive spotlight on the show. It was the most attention the show had had since its return in 2005 and it managed to mess it up big time!

Part One ranks as my second least favourite ever episode of Doctor Who, Part Two is marginally better but hardly a good episode. One of the strongest things about it though (apart from Bernard Cribbins who is always amazing no matter what he does) was the references to the Time War, and all of the Gallifrey stuff. This has now been cheapened by The Day of the Doctor. All of that impressive emotional acting from Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant and Matt Smith...well all of it feels slightly tainted now.

Well I disagree about the Day of the Doctor which I really enjoyed and if it ignored End of Time so much the better because that episode was a travesty. So I agree with you there.

But I would rather watch an episode of Sun, Sex and Suspicious Parents than rewatch End of Time.

The one that messed up big time by only getting 12.1 million viewers and an AI of 89 you mean......

BIB I have to disagree. The characters did not know what really happened, so their emotional responses are perfectly valid and real, even if, as it turned out, mistaken. Not tainted; not cheapened. I thought the 50th was wonderful and I don't get the hatred for The End of Time. Personal tastes; different strokes; no such thing as objectively good or bad, etc, etc.

It was, IMO, inevitable that Gallifrey would eventually return, just like the Daleks, the Cybermen and the Master. Its destruction/restoration was always going to be used as the fulcrum for a big dramatic story at some point. RTD may not have intended to do it himself one day, but it was always too tempting a dramatic target for subsequent writers not to use.

I still maintain that The Doctor did actually blow up Gallifrey, but the events were rewritten in Day of the Doctor; 10 did say they were rewritting their own history, and that he saw Gallifrey burning, so I think there's enough there to keep all the events prior to the episode in place for people who think it's been cheapened

I'm not sure it can be proven one way or the other, given the multiple ways time travel affects events as shown in Doctor Who. My preference is that what we saw was how it always happened. It fits the only logical way time travel could work and still prevent paradoxes.

I agree, the timey-wimeyness allows for some lenience when it comes to certain plot points, so I think it's nice that people can some up with their own interpretations

This is precisely my problem with it though. Regardless of whether those events happened and were rewritten, or if those events just never happened at all it totally removes any sense of consequence for The Doctor either way. The problem I have with it isn't the technicality, it's the character development. Why bother putting the Doctor in moral/difficult situations if we're able to just rewrite them in an 'anything goes' kind of fashion a few years down the line?

It's one thing having a timey-wimey resolution to a particular episode, rewriting events to wrap up a story that's been written into a corner - you can take or leave a particular episode and like or dislike it. But The Day of the Doctor (or rather Moffat) took it upon itself to rewrite what was a fundamental aspect of the show to many people, something that for post-2005 viewers was probably the strongest emotional aspect the show had going for it and made it so compelling. Regardless of whether or not the events of Series 1-7 still stand, it's just not the same rewatching it and knowing the Doctor will eventually get to make the decision again, and so whimsically. There was no new price to pay for the decision being made again, it was just handed on a plate... totally free of consequence.

Thinking of the quote from Sarah Jane in School Reunion "Pain and loss, they define us as much as happiness or love. Whether it's a world, or a relationship... Everything has its time. And everything ends". How can we define the already mysterious Doctor if anything he does is so changeable? Looking back at it now, regardless of whether it all still stands, it just isn't the same. You don't invest in it the same way knowing that the emotional consequences that Nine, Ten and Eleven go through are essentially for nothing, as all is fine and dandy in the end.

Of course I know not everyone is going to share that opinion, and it is only the tip of the iceberg of the problems I had with The Day of the Doctor. It wasn't The End of Time levels of bad as a story, but it's done far more damage to the show for me personally... and were it not for the fact Series 8 impressed me so much I was seriously at a point where Moffat had single-handedly nearly put me off watching.

Hmm. RTD and Moffat have both written some stinkers, nobody can deny. But nothing Moffat has written has had the sheer self-indulgence of TEOT, which pretty much screamed ''We're leaving now! It's incredibly sad! The good part of Who is over!''

I actually really enjoyed The End of Time, the Master was great

Come off it. Moffat has written A LOT of self indulgent tripe.

The majority of season 6 being a prime example.

To be honest I liked it and much preferred it to The Time of the Doctor, which I didn't think much of at all.

Since then though things have picked up considerably.

Me too, it was a great romp and JS was brilliant as the 'crazy' master. It also had Wilf in it so it is perfect just for that, 'good oh ' I wish that the xmas episodes in recent years had been so enjoyable, still hopefully this years episode will be back on track.

If you kind Moffat being desperate to write ''clever'' (read: confusing) plots, then yes, I s'pose he's been very self-indulgent.

But nothing compares to TEOT, which served no other purpose other than to signify that RTD and DT are gone. The story was wrapped up halfway through the second episode in favour of the Doctor unfairly screaming at Wilf, a bunch of ''greatest hits'' cameos, that godawful final line, and a little cameo from Matt Smith to redeem the story.

Who said anything about clever or confusing?

The plots themselves and the majority of series 6 episodes disappeared up their own backsides.

Personally I thought the ending of Tennant far better and more satisfying to that of Smith, although I did like the brief cameo of Amy.