I have to say I am getting bemused by who chooses what.

With regard to the choreography I am under the impression that other than for the AT and Charleston the pros choreograph dances themselves. However even when they get help, a few hours from specialists, in these dances the pros still add to and take away from the choreography so actually decided on what is danced on the night.

With regard to the music the pros ask for specific music but ultimately are given music and themes by the producers in order to give an overall balanced themed programme.

So for example when Caroline did so well with her salsa Pasha lucked out with a good music choice and then choreographed really well and so rightly can accept praise.

When Kevin and Frankie had the toy soldier and fairy rumba, they were given a poor music choice but Kevin decided what to dance to it, and so the non rumba, rumba was Kevins choice, but he was unlucky in having the music and theme foisted on him. If so why did he say they chose do the different rumba because he did not want to do a sexy rumba due to his and Frankies relationship, though aparently he didn't mind doing a sexy AT.

There is no doubt Janette did not choose the Greek AT or Ola the cowboy paso last year as they both made their feeling very clear.

I am confused as the pros seem to accept praise for someone else's decisions, music and theming, also do not often acknowlege help with choreography, but also do not disown poor music and theming choices.

I imagine they say as much as they think they can get away with and would probably like to say a lot more but don't want to jeopardise their jobs. I don't think the producers would want them telling everyone outright that their terrible music and themes were forced on them as it would make it even more clear that some couples are being handicapped while others get appropriate music most weeks.

But Len said of the music for Kevins rumba you can only choreograph to what music you are given, at that point surely it would have been relevant to a knowlege the handicap, equally not accept praise when the music and theming fairies have favoured you.

I just think the whole programme needs to be a bit more open, open draws to fairly distribute the good and bad music choices

I sometimes feel the pros look as I they are scared to open their mouths at all for fear of upsetting judges,producers etc. Look at the backlash Trent got for uttering a few words back at the judges.

The pros do as they're told or its no contract next year.
Its a job, at the end of the day.

I totally agree but I don't think it will happen. Horrible themes and music seem to be one of the things the producers use to ease someone out of the competition when they want people to stop voting for them, which they couldn't do if there was a fair system to distribute the music (or even better let the pros choose it themselves!)

Now that was Len not the programme unless you think Len has the whole programme in his back pocket.

Really who was to blame for the 2 non rumba rumbas ?

Equally who is responsible when everything goes right ?

This year it has been noticeable how often the celebs get an audience friendly charleston the week after an unexpected bottom 2 vist.

The manipulation of the audience has been extremely heavy handed this year, I don't like it when I notice it, I want to float along in my SCD bubble thinking I make my own choices

I couldn't agree more. I'm sure it has always been manipulated but it's becoming too obvious now and its one of the main reasons that I don't enjoy the show anywhere near as much as I used to, or bother voting.


Re the 2 non-rumbas, I don't think Mark and Karen have any excuse for theirs as someone on here who I think is a dance teacher said Fields of Gold is good rumba music. So presumably Karen choreographed it that way because Mark couldn't do the proper rumba technique. I'm not sure on Frankie's - maybe she couldn't do a proper rumba or maybe it really would be impossible to choreograph one to that music - I guess one of the dance experts would be able to say. When everything goes right with the music and theme, I suppose the pros/celebs are just lucky (or favoured) and I don't know what they would say to acknowledge that, plus they still have to choreograph a good dance to it and teach their celeb to dance it well.

I,m just using Trent/Len as an example of why the pros can be scared to talk back. The producers have manipulated a lot this series, I would like it to be far less and for the pros to choose their own music etc. Too much manipulation is never a good thing just look what it's done to Xfactor.

I seem to remember on ITT a season or two ago we were told the pros got given music tracks to choose from; maybe three for each dance. I forget who was being interviewed. It could have been Flavia. But IIRC the point the interviewee was making was it was a case of choosing the least worst option of the choices given.

However I also wonder if some of the more barking choices may not be entirely unwelcome to the pros. If one zooms out from the focus of performing a particular dance style with that years charge and look at the broader landscape from the pro's perspective the chance to show creativity, versatility and to demonstrate thinking outside the box has it's upside.

A dancer's career I would imagine is pretty short. I am guessing that most have to find an alternative to actually dancing sometime in their late 30's. The options seem to be to retrain as dentists or some such, work as teachers, coaches, judges ( I suspect much of this work isn't paid a living wage although the SCD profile will help there I am sure) The last and I would have thought most desirable option is if one can get hired for work as a choreographer for film, TV and theatre.

If my hypothesis holds water I would imagine the opportunity to showcase one's skills of crafting a Sugar Plum Fairy Rumba or a Swan Lake American Smooth is something to be seized. I have a hunch that to some of the pros SCD is just a building block in a much broader 5 or 10 year career plan.

With Artem particularly I often got a strong sense of "Look what I can do" from his routines. Much as I loved his artistry it did sometimes feel that rather than be about the celeb it was more to do with showcasing his CV, To the extend that I have half-expected him to turn around and show a website address on the back of his costume.

May I suggest upping the booze quotient on a Saturday night?

If the pros are happy to choreograph to it and the celeb is happy then fine (I believe Holly actually chose that Swan Lake music, so it wasn't even forced on them) but I'm not sure they even get as much choice now as they did a couple of series ago. I read one of the interviews with Tristan posted on here and he said he begged the producers to let him change one of the songs he danced to with Jennifer but they wouldn't and I think that is really bad. If the pro is completely unhappy with the music I don't see how they can come up with a really great dance.

Yes: a pro on ITT years ago said it was a choice from 3 songs each week, but before each new series they can suggest songs. In fact, I think they said 3 of them wanted to Cha Cha to the same Lady Gaga song; it was used for a pro number in the end. I don't know if it's still the same... must Google for Tristan's interviews!

Very interesting theory about pros using SCD as a sort of audition for other career stuff; certainly it opens doors for them, in one way or another.

I do think that often pros don't speak out and just say thanks when choreo is complimented as they are expected to generally smile, nod and agree with the judges. The fact that choerographers are employed is generally implied (end credits, appearing in ITT Pro challenge), but The Beeb just seem really tight-lipped in general about how the show is run, denying even official FoI requests to share voting figures after the fact!

And last year Ashley TD made a comment on ITT about how he'd had a ticking off for something less than positive that he apparently said about the swingathon. That was around about the same time that Ola made a veiled dig about being lumbered with the cowboy paso (in stark contrast to the epic, traditional, set the Blackpool Tower Ballroom on fire paso Kevin and Susannah got that same week), and Mark alluding to the difficult job Iveta had when trying to choreograph to some of their more 'interesting' music choices.

The beeb's worst nightmare would be for the full extent of their scripting and manipulation to come out. Just shut up and smile!

All the more reason why James Jordan needs to stop bleating on Twitter and do a PROPER exposé

I think it may be too late. Having more than exposed himself on Big Brother I think the credibility of any expose from "the Brad Pitt of the dance world" may be lost now. I think we may have to wait until Brendan or someone retires.

Was there not a discussion on here a good while back I admit, about rumba needing an underlying beat? So just a slow song is not really enough. That being said, you can probably still have a stab at the steps and moves if the speed of the track is reasonable?

I would think you could apply that to all the dances?

I think all this theming is what causes a lot of the issues, being forced to have a back story for every flipping dance.

Rumbas are in a complete mess now. Pros are given unsuitable music. Pros are taking any interpretation they like. Judges don't know what to make of it. Public don't know what to make of it. All that anyone knows is that trying to dance a standard rumba is both hard and a vote loser.

While I agree with all your other suspicions. the Charleston theory cannot be true.

Last year, when contributing to the weeks dances (as they come out in dribs and drabs in the early part of the week) thread, I contributed information re: Alison and Aljaz taken from one of the most prolific Charleston choreographers of the series' personal Facebook page. It turned out, my info was a whole 10 days premature - so the order of dances can't have been based on the previous week's outcome, at least not when outside choreographers are involved.

Time to drop the rumba.

I think that would be a shame. Although on Strictly it is most often completely cringeworthy, when done well (Kara and Artem, Rachel and Vincent) it can be beautiful. Its also a good contrast to all the other fast latin.

Yes, they were wonderful examples. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if a DS rumba expert will be along soon saying they were terrible).

Is the rumba in 'Dancing with the stars'?

Yup, and they cornered the market in unshod and half-undressed quite some time back

I think it's still in DWTS as much as any of the traditional 10 dances. They probably do it less though as they also have 'Contemporary' and 'burlesque'

I am sure the pros getting a selection of music choices to chose from was what used to happen years ago. I can remember Vincent saying it on ITT.

Apparently that changed some time ago and they are now presented with their dance type and music. I am trying to remember where I read that