O2 and Vodafone will be chomping at the bit to use any refurbished 2G equipment they have laying about the warehouse! I would have thought 3G or even 4G mandate would be a good idea. But our idiotic government knows best. It's a bit like Ofcoms chocolate fireguard "No mid contract price increases " or O2's so called "4G coverage obligation" which they can use 3G with instead. All smoke and mirrors and not fit for purpose!
Mobile phone deal will give UK 90% geographical coverage.
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New cell build for O2 and VF was under the Cornerstone agreement and covered both netorks. Beacon replaced this agreement so I would imagine any future cell built to meet this requirement would be standard shared multi layer beacon kit. O2 have recently built a new site in Berwick which is LTE and covers both operators.
It makes sense to continue the relationship for the not spot programme. O2 have Scotland. VF have Wales, and the poorly covered areas of North East and Cumbria would be split down the middle. No polnt both installing on a shared mast if it's not required.
It makes sense to continue the relationship for the not spot programme. O2 have Scotland. VF have Wales, and the poorly covered areas of North East and Cumbria would be split down the middle. No polnt both installing on a shared mast if it's not required.
Originally Posted by enapace:
“I've got an interesting question not sure if anyone knows this but the 90% obviously doesn't include data but only SMS and Voice coverage has the government added an amendment to make sure that the networks use LTE on all sites. Else when 2G/3G gets shut down we will lose that 5% and go back to 85% Geographical. SMS is already possible by 4G on all networks and imagine by end of 2017 all networks will have commerically launched VoLTE.
Just an interesting thought I had I hope the government has thought about this. It would be cheaper for the networks not to install LTE on the masts hope that was considered when this deal was reached.”
“I've got an interesting question not sure if anyone knows this but the 90% obviously doesn't include data but only SMS and Voice coverage has the government added an amendment to make sure that the networks use LTE on all sites. Else when 2G/3G gets shut down we will lose that 5% and go back to 85% Geographical. SMS is already possible by 4G on all networks and imagine by end of 2017 all networks will have commerically launched VoLTE.
Just an interesting thought I had I hope the government has thought about this. It would be cheaper for the networks not to install LTE on the masts hope that was considered when this deal was reached.”
Enapace, not sure I follow what you are saying there about it dropping to 85%. Each individual network needs to be at 90% geo for voice so why 85%? Could you explain a bit more.
Originally Posted by japaul:
“Enapace, not sure I follow what you are saying there about it dropping to 85%. Each individual network needs to be at 90% geo for voice so why 85%? Could you explain a bit more.”
“Enapace, not sure I follow what you are saying there about it dropping to 85%. Each individual network needs to be at 90% geo for voice so why 85%? Could you explain a bit more.”
He's looking ahead to 2G /3G switch off and how it may impact geographical coverage.
Originally Posted by Everything Goes:
“He's looking ahead to 2G /3G switch off and how it may impact geographical coverage.”
“He's looking ahead to 2G /3G switch off and how it may impact geographical coverage.”
I know but why would that change the requirement to 85%? The agreement states each individual network must have 90% voice and it's up to them how they get to it.
Originally Posted by japaul:
“Enapace, not sure I follow what you are saying there about it dropping to 85%. Each individual network needs to be at 90% geo for voice so why 85%? Could you explain a bit more.”
“Enapace, not sure I follow what you are saying there about it dropping to 85%. Each individual network needs to be at 90% geo for voice so why 85%? Could you explain a bit more.”
Sure thing will do below
Originally Posted by Everything Goes:
“He's looking ahead to 2G /3G switch off and how it may impact geographical coverage.”
“He's looking ahead to 2G /3G switch off and how it may impact geographical coverage.”
Yeah precisely just want clarify the details.
Originally Posted by japaul:
“I know but why would that change the requirement to 85%? The agreement states each individual network must have 90% voice and it's up to them how they get to it.”
“I know but why would that change the requirement to 85%? The agreement states each individual network must have 90% voice and it's up to them how they get to it.”
Basically what I'm saying if they don't make all these new masts LTE for the future when we come to 2G/3G switch off they are likely going try and get a concession from Ofcom to switch them off taking the 90% voice coverage down to 85%. I was curious if there was a amendment or obligation in the contract that says that either voice only masts have to be made 2G/3G/4G from start or they have to upgrade to LTE before they can turn of 2G/3G on them. Honestly they should really just be made 2G/4G if they are Voice/SMS only 3G would be kind of pointless to include apart from on Three for obvious reasons though if they wait a bit they could build those when they have VoLTE later this year.
Originally Posted by enapace:
“Basically what I'm saying if they don't make all these new masts LTE for the future when we come to 2G/3G switch off they are likely going try and get a concession from Ofcom to switch them off taking the 90% voice coverage down to 85%. I was curious if there was a amendment or obligation in the contract that says that either voice only masts have to be made 2G/3G/4G from start or they have to upgrade to LTE before they can turn of 2G/3G on them. Honestly they should really just be made 2G/4G if they are Voice/SMS only 3G would be kind of pointless to include apart from on Three for obvious reasons though if they wait a bit they could build those when they have VoLTE later this year.”
“Basically what I'm saying if they don't make all these new masts LTE for the future when we come to 2G/3G switch off they are likely going try and get a concession from Ofcom to switch them off taking the 90% voice coverage down to 85%. I was curious if there was a amendment or obligation in the contract that says that either voice only masts have to be made 2G/3G/4G from start or they have to upgrade to LTE before they can turn of 2G/3G on them. Honestly they should really just be made 2G/4G if they are Voice/SMS only 3G would be kind of pointless to include apart from on Three for obvious reasons though if they wait a bit they could build those when they have VoLTE later this year.”
Okay, thanks. I understood what you were getting at with any possible 2G/3G switch off reducing coverage but was confused about the 85%. I think there has been some misunderstanding about the 85% requirement in the articles linked to in this thread.
Everyone understands the 90% requirement each network needs to meet only covers voice or text and this can be done in any way (2G,3G or 4G VoLTE). But for some reason the 85% (so called full coverage) requirement has been interpreted as meaning 3G/4G or data coverage. It doesn't mean that. It's also just a voice and text requirement. The only difference is that all four networks must be available together in 85% of the country. Perhaps the term full coverage is not the best choice of words but it simply means an area where all of the networks provide coverage. There's no requirement for data but obviously data coverage does improve as a result of this agreement as the rollouts are primarily not 2G.
Originally Posted by japaul:
“Okay, thanks. I understood what you were getting at with any possible 2G/3G switch off reducing coverage but was confused about the 85%. I think there has been some misunderstanding about the 85% requirement in the articles linked to in this thread.
Everyone understands the 90% requirement each network needs to meet only covers voice or text and this can be done in any way (2G,3G or 4G VoLTE). But for some reason the 85% (so called full coverage) requirement has been interpreted as meaning 3G/4G or data coverage. It doesn't mean that. It's also just a voice and text requirement. The only difference is that all four networks must be available together in 85% of the country. Perhaps the term full coverage is not the best choice of words but it simply means an area where all of the networks provide coverage. There's no requirement for data but obviously data coverage does improve as a result of this agreement as the rollouts are primarily not 2G.”
“Okay, thanks. I understood what you were getting at with any possible 2G/3G switch off reducing coverage but was confused about the 85%. I think there has been some misunderstanding about the 85% requirement in the articles linked to in this thread.
Everyone understands the 90% requirement each network needs to meet only covers voice or text and this can be done in any way (2G,3G or 4G VoLTE). But for some reason the 85% (so called full coverage) requirement has been interpreted as meaning 3G/4G or data coverage. It doesn't mean that. It's also just a voice and text requirement. The only difference is that all four networks must be available together in 85% of the country. Perhaps the term full coverage is not the best choice of words but it simply means an area where all of the networks provide coverage. There's no requirement for data but obviously data coverage does improve as a result of this agreement as the rollouts are primarily not 2G.”
Ah so you saying that in 85% of the country all four networks have to have coverage and then for the last 15% they have to provide 5% extra coverage but it doesn't have to all be the same areas?
So vast majority of these masts will be 2G/3G/4G so the coverage obligation is kept when 2G/3G switch off happens?
How is this meant to work alongside MIP btw is that included in the 90% geographical coverage or is that going to be aimed at areas where the networks aren't going to put up masts with this 90% thing.
Sorry just a bit confusing imagine for EE and Three 800MHz LTE would work best in these areas instead of using 2G 1800MHz/3G 2100MHz.
Originally Posted by enapace:
“Ah so you saying that in 85% of the country all four networks have to have coverage and then for the last 15% they have to provide 5% extra coverage but it doesn't have to all be the same areas?”
“Ah so you saying that in 85% of the country all four networks have to have coverage and then for the last 15% they have to provide 5% extra coverage but it doesn't have to all be the same areas?”
Yep
Quote:
“So vast majority of these masts will be 2G/3G/4G so the coverage obligation is kept when 2G/3G switch off happens?”
“So vast majority of these masts will be 2G/3G/4G so the coverage obligation is kept when 2G/3G switch off happens?”
To be honest I think any large scale switch off is so far into the future that it might not be relevant by then. But if anything is switched off then the 90% requirement still needs to be met.
Quote:
“How is this meant to work alongside MIP btw is that included in the 90% geographical coverage or is that going to be aimed at areas where the networks aren't going to put up masts with this 90% thing.”
“How is this meant to work alongside MIP btw is that included in the 90% geographical coverage or is that going to be aimed at areas where the networks aren't going to put up masts with this 90% thing.”
MIP areas can count as part of the 90%. Doesn't matter how you get there.
Quote:
“Sorry just a bit confusing imagine for EE and Three 800MHz LTE would work best in these areas instead of using 2G 1800MHz/3G 2100MHz.”
“Sorry just a bit confusing imagine for EE and Three 800MHz LTE would work best in these areas instead of using 2G 1800MHz/3G 2100MHz.”
Certainly for Three it makes their 800MHz VoLTE rollout critical now. Little chance of them reaching the 90% target using only 2100MHz 3G.
The only odd thing for me is the 85% target requires some coordination amongst them all. What happens if they all reach the 90% target but collectively fail the 85% one. Who is responsible for the failure?
The networks aim to convert nearly every site eventually. EE for example is to convert all but a handful of sites to 4G. Last time I heard it was about 12 (landlord/backhaul logistic issues) that wouldn't get done so.. Even if they were only 1800 MHz 4G sites there would be no issues.
Originally Posted by moox:
“The difference in geographical coverage between EE and 3 for 3G seems interesting, are there really that many ex T-Orange sites that have not been MBNLed? (and since it doesn't change the premises percentage, they're either there for extra capacity or cover the middle of nowhere?)”
“The difference in geographical coverage between EE and 3 for 3G seems interesting, are there really that many ex T-Orange sites that have not been MBNLed? (and since it doesn't change the premises percentage, they're either there for extra capacity or cover the middle of nowhere?)”
I really do think there are bloody loads of them and when they are done it's going to make a marked real difference.
here is a link to a pic where I have marked just 6 legacy orange masts that are still either GPRS/EDGE (5) or crappy sub 1 meg 3G (1).
These are just the ones I past regularly.
Positions are only very rough as I can't see enough detail.
There are way way more than this in Devon alone.
They have their work cut out I can say... : )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cx2j9tjnti...range.JPG?dl=0
Yes we have said this elsewhere as Staffordshire is another county with loads of them.
Surly this BT deal will slow down investment in upgrades as why spend when you can increase profits?
Also these masts are going to cost EE a fortune if they are going to covert them all.
Surly this BT deal will slow down investment in upgrades as why spend when you can increase profits?
Also these masts are going to cost EE a fortune if they are going to covert them all.
Three have stated that they want outdoor coverage across 3G/4G to reach a cumulative 99% and Indoor coverage across 3G/4G to reach a cumulative 95%.
Ultimately 800 will be the catalyst in increasing Three's indoor and overall geographical coverage whilst 1800 will be used to increase capacity.
Three are on track to launch phase 3 of their LTE plan (VoLTE) in H1 2015 and expect over 1.8m users to have a VoLTE compatible device by launch and more than 50% of their user base using an LTE device.
Three plan to launch Rich Communication Services over LTE to allow for a better experience to consumers overall. Three are currently working with Mavenir to launch VoLTE with SRVCC as well as fully integrate Three inTouch.
This is all part of Three's plan to improve their network overall and give customers a reason to stay with Three. 800, VoLTE, small cells, Three inTouch (700k+ downloads), GigE upgrades (6000+ sites) etc... are just just some of the ways that Three plan to make it's network the best.
Three are working closely with Velocent to actively monitor over 130 KPI's across their mobile data network and quickly identify issues and create resolutions. In turn, Three hope that this will keep users satisfied and positive. Three are also working with Procera to upgrade capacity for 3G and 4G sites as well as actively manage each component of their mobile data network to optimise throughput for their users. (Think congestion management).
Staff are being trained in resolution management (think traditional soft skills) in order to maintain and improve on their industry leading customer service scores. Three identified over 900,000 cases in 2014, to do with network issues, that had not been resolved sufficiently This was despite over 300,000 of them being escalated. Tools and processes are now being put in place to help assist and resolve customer issues in regards to the network.
Three is very much about the service they provide and value added services now.
Three now have over 15,000 sites leading to 98% 3G coverage and 50% 4G coverage. In Northern Ireland, Three have over 420 sites with 95% 3G coverage and 4G is due to launch in Belfast and Londonderry before the end of Q1 2015.
Ultimately 800 will be the catalyst in increasing Three's indoor and overall geographical coverage whilst 1800 will be used to increase capacity.
Three are on track to launch phase 3 of their LTE plan (VoLTE) in H1 2015 and expect over 1.8m users to have a VoLTE compatible device by launch and more than 50% of their user base using an LTE device.
Three plan to launch Rich Communication Services over LTE to allow for a better experience to consumers overall. Three are currently working with Mavenir to launch VoLTE with SRVCC as well as fully integrate Three inTouch.
This is all part of Three's plan to improve their network overall and give customers a reason to stay with Three. 800, VoLTE, small cells, Three inTouch (700k+ downloads), GigE upgrades (6000+ sites) etc... are just just some of the ways that Three plan to make it's network the best.
Three are working closely with Velocent to actively monitor over 130 KPI's across their mobile data network and quickly identify issues and create resolutions. In turn, Three hope that this will keep users satisfied and positive. Three are also working with Procera to upgrade capacity for 3G and 4G sites as well as actively manage each component of their mobile data network to optimise throughput for their users. (Think congestion management).
Staff are being trained in resolution management (think traditional soft skills) in order to maintain and improve on their industry leading customer service scores. Three identified over 900,000 cases in 2014, to do with network issues, that had not been resolved sufficiently This was despite over 300,000 of them being escalated. Tools and processes are now being put in place to help assist and resolve customer issues in regards to the network.
Three is very much about the service they provide and value added services now.
Three now have over 15,000 sites leading to 98% 3G coverage and 50% 4G coverage. In Northern Ireland, Three have over 420 sites with 95% 3G coverage and 4G is due to launch in Belfast and Londonderry before the end of Q1 2015.
See its all very nice talking about having the phone on a WiFi app, but this to me is just a cop out. Mobile networks should be investing in improving their networks and three does seem the worst coverage wise - yet when you get a signal the data speed is mega impressive.
That's why I was hoping MNLB upgrading the local mast could make 3 a possibility - but so far no action at all on this mast.
That's why I was hoping MNLB upgrading the local mast could make 3 a possibility - but so far no action at all on this mast.
Originally Posted by jabbamk1:
“Three have stated that they want outdoor coverage across 3G/4G to reach a cumulative 99% and Indoor coverage across 3G/4G to reach a cumulative 95%.”
“Three have stated that they want outdoor coverage across 3G/4G to reach a cumulative 99% and Indoor coverage across 3G/4G to reach a cumulative 95%.”
I doubt that's enough to reach the new requirement.
Originally Posted by japaul:
“I doubt that's enough to reach the new requirement.”
“I doubt that's enough to reach the new requirement.”
Bear in mind that Three and Ofcom have a different model for measuring indoor/geographical coverage.
Ofcom state that Three currently have 93% indoor coverage where as Three's internal number is stated as ~85%, They plan to grow this to cumulative 95%+ by the end of their 4G roll out.
Originally Posted by Everything Goes:
“Does anyone know the Geographical for all 4 networks?”
“Does anyone know the Geographical for all 4 networks?”
According to Ofcom- http://i.imgur.com/10ned39.png
Japaul posted this originally.
Originally Posted by DevonBloke:
“I really do think there are bloody loads of them and when they are done it's going to make a marked real difference.
here is a link to a pic where I have marked just 6 legacy orange masts that are still either GPRS/EDGE (5) or crappy sub 1 meg 3G (1).
These are just the ones I past regularly.
Positions are only very rough as I can't see enough detail.
There are way way more than this in Devon alone.
They have their work cut out I can say... : )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cx2j9tjnti...range.JPG?dl=0”
“I really do think there are bloody loads of them and when they are done it's going to make a marked real difference.
here is a link to a pic where I have marked just 6 legacy orange masts that are still either GPRS/EDGE (5) or crappy sub 1 meg 3G (1).
These are just the ones I past regularly.
Positions are only very rough as I can't see enough detail.
There are way way more than this in Devon alone.
They have their work cut out I can say... : )
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cx2j9tjnti...range.JPG?dl=0”
Are you sure Three customers can't acess them? Seems lots in one area even knowing the totals are in the thousands.
Originally Posted by The Lord Lucan:
“Are you sure Three customers can't acess them? Seems lots in one area even knowing the totals are in the thousands.”
“Are you sure Three customers can't acess them? Seems lots in one area even knowing the totals are in the thousands.”
Is the number less than 3k Lucan?
Originally Posted by jabbamk1:
“According to Ofcom- http://i.imgur.com/10ned39.png
Japaul posted this originally.”
“According to Ofcom- http://i.imgur.com/10ned39.png
Japaul posted this originally.”
Cool
So given the coverage is only for voice and text:
Vodafone 82% (2G)
O2 78% (2G)
EE 78% (2G)
Three 68% (3G)
Originally Posted by Everything Goes:
“Cool
So given the coverage is only for voice and text:
Vodafone 82% (2G)
O2 78% (2G)
EE 78% (2G)
Three 68% (3G)”
“Cool
So given the coverage is only for voice and text:
Vodafone 82% (2G)
O2 78% (2G)
EE 78% (2G)
Three 68% (3G)”
Geographical coverage is exactly what needs to be focussed on right now and band 20 is perfect for that. Couple it with 700 & 900 in the future and it'll be easy to get to 95% geographical coverage.
Issue at the moment is cost which is what this deal is trying to solve.
Originally Posted by clewsy:
“See its all very nice talking about having the phone on a WiFi app, but this to me is just a cop out. Mobile networks should be investing in improving their networks and three does seem the worst coverage wise - yet when you get a signal the data speed is mega impressive.”
“See its all very nice talking about having the phone on a WiFi app, but this to me is just a cop out. Mobile networks should be investing in improving their networks and three does seem the worst coverage wise - yet when you get a signal the data speed is mega impressive.”
The problem is the construction of modern buildings won't help with that indoor coverage unless you end up with a mast on every street - I've been in plenty of houses where you have 5 bars outside and nothing inside, but just leaving the patio doors open gives you a usable signal. WiFi calling is a good way to ensure continuity of service in such buildings - ditto sub-terrain car parks, shipping centres, bars etc.
The current targets for wide geographic coverage and population coverage are a definite plus and should fix the bits we as consumers can't control. It also wouldn't surprise me if an ISP went and did a BT-Fon allowing it's customers to roam on a (hidden) WiFi network on their home routers for VoWiFi - but that would need WiFi to WiFi handoff which may be some way off!
Fair point but at the moment its only BT who have any decent FON coverage. I'm surprised they have not created a PlusNet FON and then "allowed" BT customers to access these as well.
I thought Sky may copy this idea with home based "cloud" options however seems not to have been the case.
The problem is that WiFi calling is a great fix for your own home, but at somewhere else without WiFi and its not much use at all.
I thought Sky may copy this idea with home based "cloud" options however seems not to have been the case.
The problem is that WiFi calling is a great fix for your own home, but at somewhere else without WiFi and its not much use at all.
The Register also has many questions about the governments vague plans. Worth a read!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12...t_deal/?page=4
Quote:
“But when we asked for clarification on the point that operators will be held to supporting the individual technologies, we were told that "it will be up to MNOs how they choose to deliver their coverage obligation. The agreement is not specific about the technology they should use to achieve this", and anyway, asking for obligations on 4G voice is nonsensical.
While there will be some VoLTE (Voice over LTE), there is none at the moment and the DCMS conceded "mobile operators will be able to choose how best to deliver their coverage obligation. We understand that some voice coverage will be delivered using VoLTE". So, while the release talks about 4G voice there isn't any compulsion to do it.
When we spoke to Vittorio Colao, the CEO of Vodafone about National Roaming he said that what needed to be done was "easier planning permission, reduced power for landlords to dictate what was done on sites, and higher mast heights".
The new agreement doesn’t deal with any of these, the DCMS told us, with "all of this the planning laws would still apply and so checks and balances are in place”.
The statement says that the operators will have their licence conditions altered to encompass the new obligations. And it makes it clear that there will be no governmental contribution to the £5bn, but it will look at the licence fee, where Ofcom is proposing a near tripling. The whole deal hangs on measuring if the mobile operators have fulfilled their obligation. But there is no mention of penalties if they fail to do so. That measurement falls to Ofcom, which has rather dropped the ball in recent surveys, relying on crowdsourced and RootMetrics information, and coming up with the great pronouncement that 4G is faster than 3G.
Checking if there is 70 per cent, 80 per cent or 85 per cent national coverage is significantly non-trivial. If putting it in is hard, measuring who has done what is harder still. Indeed the only way to really do this would be for Ofcom to look from inside the networks and then use that as a basis to go out and check - it’s what the networks do for their own measurements.
We asked if Ofcom will be able to go into the Mobile Network Operators Network Operation Centres and look at box maps and signal strengths, and were told "Ofcom will use appropriate methods for ensuring compliance with licence conditions.
This usually takes the form of detailed signal strength information", but were not given any details on where that signal strength information would come from.
It does however mean that at the very least it would use network test equipment and not the crowdsourced data that has been used of late.”
“But when we asked for clarification on the point that operators will be held to supporting the individual technologies, we were told that "it will be up to MNOs how they choose to deliver their coverage obligation. The agreement is not specific about the technology they should use to achieve this", and anyway, asking for obligations on 4G voice is nonsensical.
While there will be some VoLTE (Voice over LTE), there is none at the moment and the DCMS conceded "mobile operators will be able to choose how best to deliver their coverage obligation. We understand that some voice coverage will be delivered using VoLTE". So, while the release talks about 4G voice there isn't any compulsion to do it.
When we spoke to Vittorio Colao, the CEO of Vodafone about National Roaming he said that what needed to be done was "easier planning permission, reduced power for landlords to dictate what was done on sites, and higher mast heights".
The new agreement doesn’t deal with any of these, the DCMS told us, with "all of this the planning laws would still apply and so checks and balances are in place”.
The statement says that the operators will have their licence conditions altered to encompass the new obligations. And it makes it clear that there will be no governmental contribution to the £5bn, but it will look at the licence fee, where Ofcom is proposing a near tripling. The whole deal hangs on measuring if the mobile operators have fulfilled their obligation. But there is no mention of penalties if they fail to do so. That measurement falls to Ofcom, which has rather dropped the ball in recent surveys, relying on crowdsourced and RootMetrics information, and coming up with the great pronouncement that 4G is faster than 3G.
Checking if there is 70 per cent, 80 per cent or 85 per cent national coverage is significantly non-trivial. If putting it in is hard, measuring who has done what is harder still. Indeed the only way to really do this would be for Ofcom to look from inside the networks and then use that as a basis to go out and check - it’s what the networks do for their own measurements.
We asked if Ofcom will be able to go into the Mobile Network Operators Network Operation Centres and look at box maps and signal strengths, and were told "Ofcom will use appropriate methods for ensuring compliance with licence conditions.
This usually takes the form of detailed signal strength information", but were not given any details on where that signal strength information would come from.
It does however mean that at the very least it would use network test equipment and not the crowdsourced data that has been used of late.”
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/12...t_deal/?page=4
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