DS Forums

 
 

Apple: "Fails to protect workers"


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19-12-2014, 20:19
Aye Up
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: North West
Posts: 4,884

Filming on an iPhone 6 production line showed Apple's promises to protect workers were routinely broken.
It found standards on workers' hours, ID cards, dormitories, work meetings and juvenile workers were being breached at the Pegatron factories.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30532463


Apple has said it is "deeply offended" by a BBC investigation into conditions for workers involved in manufacturing its devices.
Rules on workers' hours, ID cards, dormitories, work meetings and juvenile workers were routinely breached, the Panorama programme witnessed.
In a staff email, senior Apple executive Jeff Williams said he knew of no other company doing as much as Apple to improve conditions.
But he added: "We can still do better."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30548468

I haven't watched the mentioned programme as yet, however I am slightly on the fence with this one. I wouldn't go as far as to deny the BBC's claims, it obviously opens to scrutiny how Chinese companies treat their employees. My main problem with this, it appears to single out Apple for criticism when Pegatron and FoxConn also have contracts with the likes of Dell, Sony, Samsung et al.

The email sent out to UK employees is a bit senationalist admittedly but I wonder if there is more to this that meets the eye?

Reason why I ask, Apple is seemingly the only major tech company to try and improve conditions for staff in its supply chain. We don't hear of stories or similar tales about other manufacturers. I think this is an industry wide problem, I just don't get why they just focus on Apple? Samsung has been caught out about this in the past, as has HP.

What are your thoughts?

I am just about to watch the programme should be illuminating I am sure.
Aye Up is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Please sign in or register to remove this advertisement.
Old 19-12-2014, 20:24
jabbamk1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London, UK
Posts: 8,759
My thoughts are this is pretty much how labour works for 99% of our products.

Sure big companies will say they care and say they've put actions in place to make their production more "green" or more "employee friendly" but the reality is that they are paying some other company in a far away place to make their products and that company is going to want to do it as cheap as possible to win business from the big companies who want to pay as little production costs as possible.

And sure the average consumer will pretend to care every once in a while when we see this type of stuff on the news and the big companies will issue some PR statement about how they've improved working conditions when the actual reality hasn't changed much at all.

What annoys me the most though is companies like Apple who charge so much for their products yet pay so little to their production companies who in turn pay so little to their employees.

But hey, what else are the employees going to do for work. Sometimes it's the only way to earn a decent wage.

Oh and in regards to the OP, Apple have no real say over the working conditions, they can pretend they do and make it look like they've changed something but the reality is that change will be counteracted by another change. Sure working conditions will improve all the time but that is natural.
jabbamk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-12-2014, 20:28
BeethovensPiano
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ♫ At The Keyboard ♫
Posts: 11,556
It was the TV equivalent of "Click Bait"
BeethovensPiano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 00:13
swordman
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,342
No surprise that this seems to be the prevailing view. This programme was already being dismissed on some forums before even being aired. It seems for some this company can do whatever it chooses with no customer comeback, truly remarkable.
swordman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 00:44
Dark 1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 3,975
This was a hatchet job. I'd expect this sort of sensationalist 'journalism' from the Daily Mail. It's disappointing to come to the realisation the BBC are no better.

It's not that there wasn't a point to be made here. What was irritating is that they keep called them "Apple factories". They're not effin' Apple factories!

This sent a message that if you're a right thinking conscientious sort who cares about human rights, you should not buy Apple products. Pity then they fail to mention at any point that whoever's products you buy instead, probably came out of the very same factory. If not one even worse. You would think that might be a pertinent fact worth mentioning. The fact that it didn't speaks volumes.

Wouldn't be surprised if the BBC won't be invited to any keynotes or be get any pre-release goodies to review ever again. They certainly wouldn't if Jobs were still around, such was his ability to hold a grudge.
Dark 1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 01:38
Gigabit
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,876
They're targeting Apple as they're the biggest tech company in the world. As the biggest tech company in the world, they have a responsibility to have treat their workers the best out of all the companies in the industry.

Apple sets the standards other companies are going to follow and right now they're keeping them low in order to maximise profits.

The guy in the documentary who said "Apple bullshit" was bang on the money.
Gigabit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 01:41
RedOrDead36
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,595
Quite shocking seeing the workers sleeping in tandem at their workstations. Certainly wouldn't catch me near their overpriced hipster products after watching that.
RedOrDead36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 01:48
Scrovegni
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 828
My thoughts are this is pretty much how labour works for 99% of our products.

Sure big companies will say they care and say they've put actions in place to make their production more "green" or more "employee friendly" but the reality is that they are paying some other company in a far away place to make their products and that company is going to want to do it as cheap as possible to win business from the big companies who want to pay as little production costs as possible.

And sure the average consumer will pretend to care every once in a while when we see this type of stuff on the news and the big companies will issue some PR statement about how they've improved working conditions when the actual reality hasn't changed much at all.

What annoys me the most though is companies like Apple who charge so much for their products yet pay so little to their production companies who in turn pay so little to their employees.

But hey, what else are the employees going to do for work. Sometimes it's the only way to earn a decent wage.

Oh and in regards to the OP, Apple have no real say over the working conditions, they can pretend they do and make it look like they've changed something but the reality is that change will be counteracted by another change. Sure working conditions will improve all the time but that is natural.
The man who pays the piper calls the itune.
Scrovegni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 06:42
slattery69
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 204
My take on this is ALL companies have a duty of care to make sure the suppliers they use are doing things the right way and to watch ever rules you lay down as part of the supply agreement.

When horse meat was found in food who was it that was called to common select meetings and told to clean up there acts. It was the supermarkets not the suppliers as again the supermarkets had a duty of care and a process that they failed to follow.

in this case so do apple as well as all the other companies who use foxconn etc I'm guessing the BBC used apple is they are the one the public seems to crave for and also the most vocal in saying they have made real change.

What it showed me was they might have put agreements and rules in place to improve things but based on what i saw they aren't doing enough to check there been followed.
slattery69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 07:55
corf
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,458
Quite shocking seeing the workers sleeping in tandem at their workstations. Certainly wouldn't catch me near their overpriced hipster products after watching that.
good luck finding a phone manufacturer whose working conditions are better.
corf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 08:07
KieranDS
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Posts: 15,937
My favourite part of the documentary was when they were using a Macbook Air and an iPad to show various videos and documents, whilst slating the conditions in which they were produced.

The documentary also kept referring to the factories as "Apple factories" which I felt was quite misleading. These aren't Apple factories. They are factories in which Apple contracts work to.
KieranDS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 08:07
Tidosho
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,422
Apple are screwing the natives like we in the west have done for hundreds of years. The main difference from a hundred years ago is the workers own governments are accommodating and encouraging.

I don't have any apple products but I dare say the tech I buy is tarred with the same brush.
Tidosho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 10:30
calico_pie
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9,423
I think with this sort of thing its difficult to reduce it to the fault lies with the western company. Because the one thing we should be pretty certain is that this isn't an Apple issue at all, its a general issue where western companies use manufacturing factories out in Asia. Its almost certainly not that Apple have knowingly sought out cheaper labour than anyone else with suppliers with crappier working conditions.

There are also cultural differences - with regards the long hours, as long as people are working within the legal limits over there through choice, then I'm not sure that's an issue. I they are working more hours by force than they legally should be, then that's a different issue.

It might be easy to say people shouldn't be working the hours they do, but if they actively choose to do so because it means they can make what is, to them, a reasonable amount of money relative to average pay over there, then who are we to say they shouldn't?

It is also easy to reduce it to a headline like "staff in Apple factories...". As others have said, they are not Apple staff. They are Foxconn and Pegatron staff, and the buck stops with them, not with any western company contracting work to them.

If someone employed a plumber to install a boiler, who is responsible for the conditions in which the boiler is manufactured? The person hiring the plumber? The plumber? The company who manufactures the boiler?

The principle here is no different.

But having said all of that, due to the scale of the contract, and how high profile the products are, I would certainly say that any western contractor has a duty of care to use their influence to do what they can to make sure working conditions at the very least meet whatever minimum legal standards they should be meeting.

Apple say that while things might not be perfect yet, they have taken steps to improve conditions. I'd like to think that was the case.

A couple of comparisons would certainly be interesting:

1. Foxconn / Pegatron factories now, with Foxconn / Pegatron factories 10 years ago.

2. Foxconn / Pegatron factories, with other lower profile factories.

At least then we'd get a bit of perspective and maybe some indication of whether or not Apple / other western companies really were doing anything to improve conditions.

As an analogy, if a student regularly got 10% in exams, and after having a new teacher for a few years is now getting 45% in exams, is the new teacher likely to be a good teacher for getting that improvement out of the student, or a bad teacher because the student is still failing exams?

That's why context and perspective is so important rather than just going with the headline:

Student fails exams with current teacher
calico_pie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 11:29
coopermanyorks
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In Gods Own County
Posts: 20,678
I watched it as it aired,it was damming of Apple and the factories the conditions and the hours worked by the staff,however the BBC should have got undercover staff on the production lines of other products coming out of the named factories for balance
coopermanyorks is offline Follow this poster on Twitter   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 11:55
calico_pie
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9,423
I think this is exactly it.

If there is an issue here it is most likely:

Working conditions in manufacturing factories in China

Or maybe:

Working conditions in manufacturing factories in China which have contracts with Western companies

It probably isn't:

Apple fails to protect workers

And as I said above, it might be more interesting to know the situation on FoxConn / Pegaton factories in 2014 compared to ten years ago, and compared to other lower profile factories.

Because that would be a better indicator of whether or not high profile western companies were a positive or negative influence on those factories.

Rather than a single snapshot as portrayed in programmes like this.
calico_pie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 15:59
alanwarwic
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the wild world web
Posts: 28,132
Big companies want the cheapest possible prices with the lowest comeback/responsibility. They is why they all use, what would in fact be called a sweatshop here.
http://theinquirer.net/inquirer/news...eep-on-the-job

"Apple claims that it is not aware of such practices and will launch an investigation, but this is nothing new."
I'm not at all sure that past promises now allow them to silence the messenger.

Apple might be the biggest, but they will be far from the worst, knowing that the 'lowest price' is what matters the most to them all.
alanwarwic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 16:14
kidspud
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 11,493
Big companies want the cheapest possible prices with the lowest comeback/responsibility. They is why they all use, what would in fact be called a sweatshop here.
http://theinquirer.net/inquirer/news...eep-on-the-job

"Apple claims that it is not aware of such practices and will launch an investigation, but this is nothing new."
I'm not at all sure that past promises now allow them to silence the messenger.

Apple might be the biggest, but they will be far from the worst, knowing that the 'lowest price' is what matters the most to them all.
Please explain bib.

Whilst you are at it, tell us about the conditions in the factory your cheap Chinese phone came from.
kidspud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 16:49
corf
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,458
He is saying other factories will be worse, which is possible based on the bad press Apple had after the suicides and their drive to improve conditions. However those improved conditions will still be very bad.
corf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 17:43
Dark 1
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 3,975
Seems Apple issue lots of well meaning, western value influenced guidelines and conduct all sorts of audits. And I'm sure when the Apple big knobs are visiting, they're abided by to the letter. But as soon as they've poodled off back to the good old U S of A, those guidelines are filed back in the little round filing cabinet and they go back to their own guidelines of, "What they don't know won't hurt them."

There's really only so much any tech company, even the biggest one in the world, can do against that sort of institutionalised don't-give-a-shitness. Short of withdrawing from China of course. And good luck with that!
Dark 1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 17:53
kidspud
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 11,493
Seems Apple issue lots of well meaning, western value influenced guidelines and conduct all sorts of audits. And I'm sure when the Apple big knobs are visiting, they're abided by to the letter. But as soon as they've poodled off back to the good old U S of A, those guidelines are filed back in the little round filing cabinet and they go back to their own guidelines of, "What they don't know won't hurt them."

There's really only so much any tech company, even the biggest one in the world, can do against that sort of institutionalised don't-give-a-shitness. Short of withdrawing from China of course. And good luck with that!
I agree. My experience in India was to give them very clear guidelines to follow, which they would always agree to and follow when you were there. Once your back was turned, they revert back to bad practice. There is an element of culture about it, but it's s pain in the bum.
kidspud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 21:24
finbaar
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,921
The cost of assembly of a phone was said to be about $5. If this was doubled to $10 then we as western as consumers would hardly notice but the workers in China would.

I am sure conditions in factories where other devices are made are very similar to those shown in the documentary. However it is Apple and the disgusting Cook that make a big play of the wonderful work they do to prevent worker exploitation. Shame on them. They are hypocrites.

Meanwhile we can buy fairtraid coffee and chocolate, how about fairtrade tech?
finbaar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2014, 21:32
alanwarwic
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the wild world web
Posts: 28,132
Apple are screwing the natives like we in the west have done for hundreds of years. The main difference from a hundred years ago is the workers own governments are accommodating and encouraging.
errr That was the UK back in the early 1900's, and it is the UK today with regards to Zero hours.
Zero hours means workers(Amazon etc) have to grab the work when they can. Its just happens to be less hours than in China.

And I'm being controversial(wrong forum) in suggesting right wing politicians blame foreigners to deflect from their fellow rich mates getting blame for problems.


Exploitation, it is something that will always needs taming, everywhere.
alanwarwic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2014, 01:16
RedOrDead36
Inactive Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,595
What bring other mobile phone companies into it? Apple are market leaders and their phones carry a massive premium. They should be taking the lead here when it comes to working standards.
RedOrDead36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2014, 06:37
Stiggles
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 9,292
I watched it and it was pretty bad. But to be honest, this happens probably in every factory in China.

The only way for them to sort this would be to have representatives on site at all times. Other companies do this, so i'm sure Apple could. That way, they could ensure guidelines are being met constantly.

Or build their own factories.
Stiggles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2014, 07:35
kidspud
Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 11,493
I watched it and it was pretty bad. But to be honest, this happens probably in every factory in China.

The only way for them to sort this would be to have representatives on site at all times. Other companies do this, so i'm sure Apple could. That way, they could ensure guidelines are being met constantly.

Or build their own factories.
What other companies are you referring too, I would like to compare their policies to Apples.
kidspud is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:37.