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Apple: "Fails to protect workers"


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Old 22-12-2014, 00:51
calico_pie
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So, just for clarification. Are you saying this documentary was wrong? And these things are not happening on the scale that was reported?
Just for clarification, are you trying to put words in my mouth?

Of the two scenarios above, I didn't think the programme really drew any conclusions as to which might be nearer the truth.
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Old 22-12-2014, 00:55
calico_pie
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There is no exaggeration here. This thread is taking exactly the same turn as every other one you get involved with. Loads of italics, loads of bullet questions and not one shred of evidence from you to the contrary.
If you're saying that I ignore 99 out of 100 things you say, that absolutely is an exaggeration.
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Old 22-12-2014, 06:32
kidspud
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Why is it, you and cp when replying to a post always ignore 99% of it and pick at one bit?

Two I can think of to just now to keep you happy are Tokeim and Michellin. There will of course be others.

What I am confused with, is why you need to know this? What is it going to prove? Are you going to be able to correct apples issues with your best research? Or is this just another daft question so you can look for holes to show apple is completely blameless as always?
I'm interested because I would like to know what companies have the perfect record that you referred to. As it is, the two companies you refer to own factories in China so It is not even clear to me whether you understand what we are talking about here.

As for your claim that I am defending Apple, it just goes to show how your bias mind works. I have not defended Apple at all and would not defend any companies who encourage bad working practices.

Unfortunately, with your bias views, you seem unable to read anything from a poster that doesn't agree with you with any balance
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Old 22-12-2014, 16:22
Stiggles
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I'm interested because I would like to know what companies have the perfect record that you referred to. As it is, the two companies you refer to own factories in China so It is not even clear to me whether you understand what we are talking about here.
Sorry, where did i say perfect record?

They indeed own factories. But, are you telling me exploitation cannot still exist? Seems to me the one who cant grasp this is you!! They have representatives there to make sure standards are adhered too.

It's weird. You seem to want to refuse to believe this happens!! I wonder why....

As for your claim that I am defending Apple, it just goes to show how your bias mind works. I have not defended Apple at all and would not defend any companies who encourage bad working practices.

Unfortunately, with your bias views, you seem unable to read anything from a poster that doesn't agree with you with any balance
Is that your argument in full. All about bias?

Lets get one thing straight because frankly i'm getting a bit bored of this same tired old argument. I've probably owned more apple, and probably still do own more apple stuff than you have. I don't dislike apple stuff in the slightest. I dislike some things they do, which you and CP cant seem to get grasp and think anyone who dares to dislike something apple have done means they hate apple completely! The reality is, I don't have my head shoved firmly up apple's backside. I see their failings which you refuse to do. This is evident in every single post you ever make on here.

The point here is, factory workers are being mistreated and exploited. It's just that simple. These factories produce goods for apple, so it's up to apple to make sure this practice does not keep happening. They can say what they like about 1400 people making sure they don't, reports show things are great blah blah. They know fine this has been happening. There is no way they couldn't.
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Old 22-12-2014, 16:23
Stiggles
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If you're saying that I ignore 99 out of 100 things you say, that absolutely is an exaggeration.
Oddly enough, it isn't.
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Old 22-12-2014, 16:29
Stiggles
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Just for clarification, are you trying to put words in my mouth?

Of the two scenarios above, I didn't think the programme really drew any conclusions as to which might be nearer the truth.
For clarification, i asked you a question. Can you simply answer it without doing your normal reversal of it please.

I'm not sure which programme you watched, but i think it was perfectly conclusive!!

Lets be clear here. This is not apples fault entirely. But they do have a huge part to play in this and should be doing everything they can to make sure it doesn't happen. I don't think they are. There is a reason they have so much cash.
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Old 22-12-2014, 16:32
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Apple: "Fails to protect workers"

That documentary is quite shocking with its portrayal of Dickensian working conditions [see http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04vs348] and Apple should be offended at their own subcontractors' working conditions and not at the BBC who have done the right thing by exposing these employment malpractices.

While Apple theoretically have good employment policies, their factory enforcement and inspection regime is quite clearly woeful and needs significant improvement. That's the one positive thing that I hope comes from the airing of this documentary.
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Old 22-12-2014, 17:26
alanwarwic
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http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-island-iphone
On the tin subject, back in July 2013 it was

'Following this, Samsung admitted in April that its phones may contain tin from the Bangka mine area but that they were not sourcing it directly.'

and

'Apple is investigating whether tin mined from Bangka Island in Indonesia, where child labour and environmental damage from the mining has been reported, is used in its iPhones and other products.'

How they getting on ?
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:25
kidspud
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Sorry, where did i say perfect record?

They indeed own factories. But, are you telling me exploitation cannot still exist? Seems to me the one who cant grasp this is you!! They have representatives there to make sure standards are adhered too.

It's weird. You seem to want to refuse to believe this happens!! I wonder why....



Is that your argument in full. All about bias?

Lets get one thing straight because frankly i'm getting a bit bored of this same tired old argument. I've probably owned more apple, and probably still do own more apple stuff than you have. I don't dislike apple stuff in the slightest. I dislike some things they do, which you and CP cant seem to get grasp and think anyone who dares to dislike something apple have done means they hate apple completely! The reality is, I don't have my head shoved firmly up apple's backside. I see their failings which you refuse to do. This is evident in every single post you ever make on here.

The point here is, factory workers are being mistreated and exploited. It's just that simple. These factories produce goods for apple, so it's up to apple to make sure this practice does not keep happening. They can say what they like about 1400 people making sure they don't, reports show things are great blah blah. They know fine this has been happening. There is no way they couldn't.
Owning a factory and what it produces is very different to contracting work out. If you don't understand that I can't help you.

I'm interested in your behaviours rather than you claims of unbiased. You and the others in your gang pop-up whenever there is a chance to have a go at Apple (see, I can make stupid comments like you). I noticed you were very vocal on how guilty Apple were in the court case, you've been a little quiet since the outcome of that one

Oh, and those factories produce goods for every major (and minor) electronics company. The BBC made it about apple to make their programme appeal to the more simple minded who don't know any better.

As for you claiming that a company does or doesn't know. Did you have some evidence that the BBC didn't? They didn't make that accusation so I'll be really interested to know has you can make statements like that and remain credible in any way.
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:25
calico_pie
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Oddly enough, it isn't.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree, but I'm pretty certain I don't ignore 99 out of 100 things you say. I might disagree with a lot you say, but that's not the same thing.
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:29
calico_pie
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For clarification, i asked you a question. Can you simply answer it without doing your normal reversal of it please.

I'm not sure which programme you watched, but i think it was perfectly conclusive!!

Lets be clear here. This is not apples fault entirely. But they do have a huge part to play in this and should be doing everything they can to make sure it doesn't happen. I don't think they are. There is a reason they have so much cash.
I thought it was pretty clear from the 'words in mouth' comment that I wasn't saying that.

But to be clear - I'm saying that things probably are far from perfect.

But I'm also saying it would be interested to look at these examples not in isolation, but with comparisons over time, and with other factories.

Talking of unanswered questions, I'd be interested in any answers you had form questions in post 50.

For example:

Do you think context and perspective are important?

If you do, what sorts of things do you think would provide perspective and context (if not the things I have mentioned)?

If you do not, why not?
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:40
Stiggles
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I thought it was pretty clear from the 'words in mouth' comment that I wasn't saying that.

But to be clear - I'm saying that things probably are far from perfect.

But I'm also saying it would be interested to look at these examples not in isolation, but with comparisons over time, and with other factories.

Talking of unanswered questions, I'd be interested in any answers you had form questions in post 50.

For example:

Do you think context and perspective are important?

If you do, what sorts of things do you think would provide perspective and context (if not the things I have mentioned)?

If you do not, why not?
You are as always overcomplicating things. Either these things are happening or they are not. We know they are, so it needs to be sorted with no question or diversion. Simple.

I don't think other factories even come into this since it's fair to say we know they probably do happen. This is about apple and whether they are willing to admit they know this is happening and what they are going to do to fix it.
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:41
Stiggles
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Then we'll have to agree to disagree, but I'm pretty certain I don't ignore 99 out of 100 things you say. I might disagree with a lot you say, but that's not the same thing.
Actually, you do. You are well known, as well as kid for ignoring the majority of the points put to you and picking one thing and just carrying on with it.

But yeah, to save this running on for months as well, lets just agree to disagree.
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:51
calico_pie
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You are as always overcomplicating things. Either these things are happening or they are not. We know they are, so it needs to be sorted with no question or diversion. Simple.

I don't think other factories even come into this since it's fair to say we know they probably do happen. This is about apple and whether they are willing to admit they know this is happening and what they are going to do to fix it.
I don't think things like context and perspective are over complicating it at all.

If you are interested in knowing whether or not Apple are making improvements, then surely how things are compared with:

a. how they were a few years ago.

and / or

b. how they compare with other factories

would give some indication as to whether or not they were making any improvements.

Looking at it in isolation, with no context, certainly won't tell you that.
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:52
calico_pie
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Actually, you do. You are well known, as well as kid for ignoring the majority of the points put to you and picking one thing and just carrying on with it.

But yeah, to save this running on for months as well, lets just agree to disagree.
Well known?

I've got to ask, but In what circles exactly?

Is this where you speak on everyone's behalf, like some sort of forum spokesperson?
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Old 22-12-2014, 18:55
kidspud
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http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-island-iphone
On the tin subject, back in July 2013 it was

'Following this, Samsung admitted in April that its phones may contain tin from the Bangka mine area but that they were not sourcing it directly.'

and

'Apple is investigating whether tin mined from Bangka Island in Indonesia, where child labour and environmental damage from the mining has been reported, is used in its iPhones and other products.'

How they getting on ?
You should read their supplier responsibility report if you are interested. It tells you what they are doing, and the independent organisations they are working with.
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Old 22-12-2014, 19:36
Stiggles
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I don't think things like context and perspective are over complicating it at all.

If you are interested in knowing whether or not Apple are making improvements, then surely how things are compared with:

a. how they were a few years ago.

and / or

b. how they compare with other factories

would give some indication as to whether or not they were making any improvements.

Looking at it in isolation, with no context, certainly won't tell you that.
What is it with you? Can't you just concede apple are not doing a good enough job making sure the factories are up to code without all the rest of the waffle? Is this really impossible for you to do?

These issues have been reported for years since the suicides. It seems things haven't improved whatsoever.

Comparing them with other factories is completely meaningless and just an excuse to tip toe around apples failings here.
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Old 22-12-2014, 19:41
Stiggles
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Yes, well known. You think your weird views on here and pedantic behaviour have actually gone unnoticed?!!

I've got to ask, but In what circles exactly?
Well, it would obviously be on here wouldn't it since thankfully i don't know you anywhere else.

Is this where you speak on everyone's behalf, like some sort of forum spokesperson?
No no. I don't speak on everyone's behalf, nor am i a forum spokesman. Never have been so i have no idea why you say "is this where...blah blah..". This is what's been told to me and what others have said about you.

You might want to read your own posts sometime. You are like an apple spokesman.
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Old 22-12-2014, 21:00
calico_pie
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What is it with you? Can't you just concede apple are not doing a good enough job making sure the factories are up to code without all the rest of the waffle? Is this really impossible for you to do?

These issues have been reported for years since the suicides. It seems things haven't improved whatsoever.

Comparing them with other factories is completely meaningless and just an excuse to tip toe around apples failings here.
I've already conceded that things aren't perfect.

There is nothing *with me*, other than not reducing the whole thing to black and white.

Its not an excuse for anything - comparisons like those say more about what influence, if any, Apple are having.

Going back to the teacher / student analogy.

Is the teacher doing a good job because the students marks have jumped from 10% to 45%.... Or is the teacher doing a bad job because the student is still failing?

You can think all you like that this is about Apple. But its not, its a line of reasoning which would consistently hold in any example.
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Old 22-12-2014, 21:03
calico_pie
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Yes, well known. You think your weird views on here and pedantic behaviour have actually gone unnoticed?!!

Well, it would obviously be on here wouldn't it since thankfully i don't know you anywhere else.

No no. I don't speak on everyone's behalf, nor am i a forum spokesman. Never have been so i have no idea why you say "is this where...blah blah..". This is what's been told to me and what others have said about you.

You might want to read your own posts sometime. You are like an apple spokesman.
So what do you mean by "well known" then? Based on what exactly? Are you speaking on behalf of others or not?

I thought maybe others had shared their views with you, and you were expressing their views here.
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Old 22-12-2014, 21:16
alanwarwic
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I think the BBC stumbled onto the dilemma.

Suppliers agree to Apple's 'aspirations', so they simply fill in the paperwork accordingly.
And as we saw, if the employee won't tick the box to say overtime etc is voluntary, they won't be doing any work all all.
Tick box responsibility. Same with those 100% non complying smelters, it is likely as the smelter owner described it.

The is, 'supplier responsibility' is about saying 'not really our problem'. Which of course is fairly true, and a prime reason to contract, likely second only to getting the lowest possible price..
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Old 22-12-2014, 21:46
kidspud
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I think the BBC stumbled onto the dilemma.

Suppliers agree to Apple's 'aspirations', so they simply fill in the paperwork accordingly.
And as we saw, if the employee won't tick the box to say overtime etc is voluntary, they won't be doing any work all all.
Tick box responsibility. Same with those 100% non complying smelters, it is likely as the smelter owner described it.

The is, 'supplier responsibility' is about saying 'not really our problem'. Which of course is fairly true, and a prime reason to contract, likely second only to getting the lowest possible price..
And you managed to conspire that all on you own. Well done
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:03
tdenson
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You are as always overcomplicating things. Either these things are happening or they are not.
.
And you as always are seeing things in either black or white. Without some context you might as well say "Apple have got pots of money - therefore they are responsible for world poverty"
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:25
Stiggles
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And you as always are seeing things in either black or white. Without some context you might as well say "Apple have got pots of money - therefore they are responsible for world poverty"
Errr no. Not even remotely the same.

It is perfectly simple. Either its happening or its not. Which one is it?
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:26
Stiggles
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So what do you mean by "well known" then? Based on what exactly? Are you speaking on behalf of others or not?

I thought maybe others had shared their views with you, and you were expressing their views here.
My god you drone on.....

Anyway, back on topic rather than you asking questions you have already had the answer to as usual.
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