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Old 22-12-2014, 22:31
Stiggles
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I've already conceded that things aren't perfect.

There is nothing *with me*, other than not reducing the whole thing to black and white.

Its not an excuse for anything - comparisons like those say more about what influence, if any, Apple are having.

Going back to the teacher / student analogy.

Is the teacher doing a good job because the students marks have jumped from 10% to 45%.... Or is the teacher doing a bad job because the student is still failing?

You can think all you like that this is about Apple. But its not, its a line of reasoning which would consistently hold in any example.
There are no analogies here.

Like i said to tdenson, its either happening or its not. Which is it?
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:33
calico_pie
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My god you drone on.....

Anyway, back on topic rather than you asking questions you have already had the answer to as usual.
I don't think I've had an answer at all.

You're the one who made the comment about being "well known". It's not my fault you're having difficulty inexplaining what you mean by that.

That you think something doesn't make it well known.
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:41
Stiggles
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I don't think I've had an answer at all.

You're the one who made the comment about being "well known". It's not my fault you're having difficulty inexplaining what you mean by that.

That you think something doesn't make it well known.
Really? No answer at all?

Yes, well known. You think your weird views on here and pedantic behaviour have actually gone unnoticed?!!

Quote:
I've got to ask, but In what circles exactly?

Well, it would obviously be on here wouldn't it since thankfully i don't know you anywhere else.

Quote:
Is this where you speak on everyone's behalf, like some sort of forum spokesperson?

No no. I don't speak on everyone's behalf, nor am i a forum spokesman. Never have been so i have no idea why you say "is this where...blah blah..". This is what's been told to me and what others have said about you.

You might want to read your own posts sometime. You are like an apple spokesman.
THAT is an answer. One you may not like nor agree with, But an answer nevertheless.

But you by doing this are living up to your reputation by continually asking questions that have already been answered!
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:42
tdenson
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Errr no. Not even remotely the same.

It is perfectly simple. Either its happening or its not. Which one is it?
OK, I won't be accused of not answering the question. Yes, it is happening. However, the real question is firstly, to what extent is it happening and secondly, have Apple improved the situation. These are the questions you refuse to answer.
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:42
calico_pie
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There are no analogies here.

Like i said to tdenson, its either happening or its not. Which is it?
Actually there is an analogy here.

I just gave you one about a student and teacher.

If a teacher has a student getting 45% in exams, is that teacher a good teacher or a bad teacher?

If that's all we know, we can't really say for sure.

If the student used to get 10%, it's likely the teacher is doing a good job.

If the student hasn't really improved, or gotten worse, the teacher probably isn't doing a great job.

Or we could just take your view - namely that the student is failing, that's all there is to it, and any context is irrelevant and a waste of time.

In the analogy the student is directly analogous to the Chinese factories, and the teacher is directly analogous to Apple.
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:42
Stiggles
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Actually there is an analogy here.

I just gave you one about a student and teacher.

If a teacher has a student getting 45% in exams, is that teacher a good teacher or a bad teacher?

If that's all we know, we can't really say for sure.

If the student used to get 10%, it's likely the teacher is doing a good job.

If the student hasn't really improved, or gotten worse, the teacher probably isn't doing a great job.

Or we could just take your view - namely that the student is failing, that's all there is to it, and any context is irrelevant and a waste of time.

In the analogy the student is directly analogous to the Chinese factories, and the teacher is directly analogous to Apple.
Oh dear lord......

You just won't stop will you?
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:44
calico_pie
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OK, I won't be accused of not answering the question. Yes, it is happening. However, the real question is firstly, to what extent is it happening and secondly, have Apple improved the situation. These are the questions you refuse to answer.
Because, apparently, that's just not relevant.
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Old 22-12-2014, 22:45
tdenson
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Oh dear lord......

You just won't stop will you?
And just what is wrong with that analogy ? Explain please, because it seems a perfectly logical and reasonable analogy to me.
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Old 22-12-2014, 23:10
calico_pie
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Oh dear lord......

You just won't stop will you?
You know how you accused me earlier of just ignoring points that get made?

Maybe instead of going on about me going on, it would be more constructive if you maybe said which part of that you disagree with, and why you disagree with it?

Because posts like that really don't add anything constructive to the discussion at all.

Would you say, for example, that we would know that the teacher was a bad teacher because the student was failing exams?

Humour me.

Otherwise I'm going to think that you're dodging the question, because you know the answer is "no", but you don't want to say that, because then you'd have to either concede that the point would be equally valid in the Apple example, or explain why it was different.

I'm guessing you'd be too stubborn for the former, and the latter would be too tricky.

So instead we get the whole spiel about me going on.

Which, you know, is fine. But completely transparent.

You also make the mistake of thinking that the very act of being interested in a bit of context somehow defends Apple. It does nothing of the sort. It simply highlights that without context its difficult to know whether or not Apple is taking steps to improve things.

Its not enough to know that things are bad. We need to know if things are better or worse than they were five years ago.
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Old 22-12-2014, 23:13
calico_pie
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Really? No answer at all?

THAT is an answer. One you may not like nor agree with, But an answer nevertheless.

But you by doing this are living up to your reputation by continually asking questions that have already been answered!
If the question is "how does this notoriety manifest itself?", then that's really no answer at all.

Presumably for you say that, you'd need to be aware of other people's views.

I guess I just think you're exaggerating again.

Or maybe there are literally dozens of FM's who have felt the need to PM you about it.
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Old 26-12-2014, 08:48
Stuart_h
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Surely some people are missing the point ? The main drive of this, as clearly stated in the programme title, was that apple very publicly stated a while back that they were fixing the problems. This was when the public was first made aware of the issues that were found in factories used by apple and others.

Publicity and interviews stated that apple, the largest company in the world with more cash in the bank than you could imagine, would improve conditions and make life better for those involved in the production of their goods.

The show demonstrated that these were just lies. Just publicity, marketing.....

Instead they just continue to take their high margins and build their cash reserves up even more.

That was the story. The "factories are bad" story had been done before. This was saying that, despite apple promising to fix the issue, its still going on.

Surely that's newsworthy ?

You can bury your head in the sand of you want but (allegedly) over 40% of your hard earned money you spend in an apple shop goes straight into their bank account as profit. Dropping that margin by even a few percent could make life better for many thousands. Apple don't need to take such a high percentage - most other companies take nowhere near that percentage (allegedly).
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Old 26-12-2014, 11:20
tdenson
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You can bury your head in the sand of you want but (allegedly) over 40% of your hard earned money you spend in an apple shop goes straight into their bank account as profit. Dropping that margin by even a few percent could make life better for many thousands. Apple don't need to take such a high percentage - most other companies take nowhere near that percentage (allegedly).
You talk as if it's a choice that other companies don't take that degree of margin. I'm afraid this is business - Apple only "take" that amount of margin because their products are attractive enough that they can get it. Every other company on the planet would "take" the same margin if they could get it. At the end of the day they have a duty to their shareholders to maximise profit. Indeed, Apple were criticised by shareholders earlier this year for being too green, they just can't win.
Also, even though Apple are the most profitable company in the world, I think you overestimate what impact they can really have on the situation in China. we are talking about a country of 1.5B people with established norms of working and a totally different culture. That is a big ship to turn round and it's not going to happen overnight. I happen to think that Apple are doing as much (and more than most) as you can expect from a large corporation. Tell me - how much of your income have you given this year to helping world poverty ?
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Old 26-12-2014, 11:36
d123
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Also, even though Apple are the most profitable company in the world, I think you overestimate what impact they can really have on the situation in China. we are talking about a country of 1.5B people with established norms of working and a totally different culture. That is a big ship to turn round and it's not going to happen overnight. I happen to think that Apple are doing as much (and more than most) as you can expect from a large corporation. Tell me - how much of your income have you given this year to helping world poverty ?
A good point, especially when you see articles like this:

A leading non-governmental organisation (NGO) focused on ensuring fair, safe and legal labour has praised Apple's dedication to changing working conditions within its Chinese factories.

The comments come days after Apple chief executive Tim Cook was said to be "deeply offended" over allegations made by the BBC's Panorama programme that the company mistreats its workers within its supply chains.

Dan Viederman, executive director of Verité, an organisation dedicated to to ensuring that people worldwide work under safe, fair and legal working conditions by monitoring labour standards, said the issues raised by the footage were part of a wider problem within the industry.

"These are problems that every company sourcing in China faces - they are not unique to Apple. From our experience Apple has done more strategically to address the issues than most tech companies," he said.

"On both those counts, Apple has done more than most other, if not all other, tech companies. Which isn't to say they're perfect, or would be denying these problems still exist - in fact I think Apple has been fairly transparent about the fact these problems still exist."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...onditions.html

And you then see that an "ethical" retailer like John Lewis users a factory that pays workers 40p per hour to manufacture £95 stuffed Monty penguins (cost price £26, selling price £95 what's the profit percentage there?).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...p-an-hour.html

So the John Lewis supplier is paying their workers around 1/5 of what Foxconn pays its workers...
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Old 26-12-2014, 16:58
Stuart_h
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Yet again the stock response is that other people do it.

My point was that the documentary was a follow up to the apple statements about improving the situation. Regardless of "reports" the hidden camera footage showed it pretty clear that they haven't changed.

Just because someone else does it really doesn't make it right, except perhaps in some peoples heads.
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Old 26-12-2014, 17:13
d123
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Yet again the stock response is that other people do it.

My point was that the documentary was a follow up to the apple statements about improving the situation. Regardless of "reports" the hidden camera footage showed it pretty clear that they haven't changed.

Just because someone else does it really doesn't make it right, except perhaps in some peoples heads.
No, perhaps read the quote? The response was:

"On both those counts, Apple has done more than most other, if not all other, tech companies. Which isn't to say they're perfect, or would be denying these problems still exist - in fact I think Apple has been fairly transparent about the fact these problems still exist."
Come on, I understand your hatred for Apple might restrict your ability to read, just try a little harder .
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Old 26-12-2014, 17:36
kidspud
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Yet again the stock response is that other people do it.

My point was that the documentary was a follow up to the apple statements about improving the situation. Regardless of "reports" the hidden camera footage showed it pretty clear that they haven't changed.

Just because someone else does it really doesn't make it right, except perhaps in some peoples heads.
Ok, I'll try and avoid the stock response as you don't seem to think comparisons are applicable.

Apple have a very detailed policy on supplier welfare and provide detailed reports itself in addition to the many generated by independent organisations. I have not read a single one where it does not show that Apple put in a great deal of effort to monitor and improve standards for workers in its supply chain.

The hidden camera showed some which breached both the Apple policies and those of the actual companies they worked for. The evidence was gained by the BBC spying undercover. Are you suggesting that is what Apple should to?

They also focused on a company that is relatively new to the Apple supply chain. Foxconn, who were the focus of earlier investigations have shown much improved welfare.

Now, to get back to the comparisons, you often get on your high horse regarding Apple and its principles. I find it ironic that you feel no comparisons should be made. I assume that is to defend you purchase choices, as you seem to think it is better to buy from a company which does not make any claims to look after supplier employees then to buy from one that does. Oh well, I'm sure it helps you sleep at night.
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Old 26-12-2014, 17:39
Stuart_h
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A good point, especially when you see articles like this:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...onditions.html

And you then see that an "ethical" retailer like John Lewis users a factory that pays workers 40p per hour to manufacture £95 stuffed Monty penguins (cost price £26, selling price £95 what's the profit percentage there?).

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...p-an-hour.html

So the John Lewis supplier is paying their workers around 1/5 of what Foxconn pays its workers...
Ahhhh. So you weren't stating that other companies did similar then ......

Let's at least try to remember the last post we wrote, eh

I don't "hate" apple ..... That would just be silly. I don't approve of them on ethical grounds and I can't see why people swarm to buy their "build 'em cheap and sell them high" products but "hate" ???? Perhaps you need to grow up a little.
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Old 26-12-2014, 17:50
Stuart_h
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Ok, I'll try and avoid the stock response as you don't seem to think comparisons are applicable.

Apple have a very detailed policy on supplier welfare and provide detailed reports itself in addition to the many generated by independent organisations. I have not read a single one where it does not show that Apple put in a great deal of effort to monitor and improve standards for workers in its supply chain.

The hidden camera showed some which breached both the Apple policies and those of the actual companies they worked for. The evidence was gained by the BBC spying undercover. Are you suggesting that is what Apple should to?

They also focused on a company that is relatively new to the Apple supply chain. Foxconn, who were the focus of earlier investigations have shown much improved welfare.

Now, to get back to the comparisons, you often get on your high horse regarding Apple and its principles. I find it ironic that you feel no comparisons should be made. I assume that is to defend you purchase choices, as you seem to think it is better to buy from a company which does not make any claims to look after supplier employees then to buy from one that does. Oh well, I'm sure it helps you sleep at night.
Yet again the comparisons.

The documentary was about claims that apple had made that were false.

Do you think that apple products are made ethically ? A simple yes or no would suffice.

I'm sure Samsung products aren't, nor are primary, or John lewis, but do you think that apple make ethical products ?
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Old 26-12-2014, 17:57
kidspud
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Yet again the comparisons.

The documentary was about claims that apple had made that were false.

Do you think that apple products are made ethically ? A simple yes or no would suffice.

I'm sure Samsung products aren't, nor are primary, or John lewis, but do you think that apple make ethical products ?
No.

I'm more than happy that they work very hard towards that goal.

Interesting what you say about other companies (comparisons!!), funny how you never go on about them, I didn't have you down as someone who needed telling what to think by a to programme.
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Old 26-12-2014, 19:39
Stuart_h
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No.

I'm more than happy that they work very hard towards that goal.

Interesting what you say about other companies (comparisons!!), funny how you never go on about them, I didn't have you down as someone who needed telling what to think by a to programme.
Erm. I quite clearly stated apple were not alone.

And its not a programme "telling me what to think" at all ..... As you are more than aware I have stated a dislike for apples ethics from way before this documentary.

I do rely on the multitude of news articles that have made the state of the apple production chain very clear. I tend to rely on newspapers, and sites, and programmes to tell me "the news". Sadly I'm unable to investigate all daily news myself.... Way too time consuming
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Old 26-12-2014, 20:02
kidspud
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Erm. I quite clearly stated apple were not alone.

And its not a programme "telling me what to think" at all ..... As you are more than aware I have stated a dislike for apples ethics from way before this documentary.

I do rely on the multitude of news articles that have made the state of the apple production chain very clear. I tend to rely on newspapers, and sites, and programmes to tell me "the news". Sadly I'm unable to investigate all daily news myself.... Way too time consuming
Yes, you have often stated it, but never been able to explain your selective ethics. You then moan when someone highlights your bias.

You rely on news stories, but then want to dismiss internal and independent reports.
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Old 26-12-2014, 20:31
Stuart_h
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Yes, you have often stated it, but never been able to explain your selective ethics. You then moan when someone highlights your bias.

You rely on news stories, but then want to dismiss internal and independent reports.
I have often explained my ethics. Wealthiest company in the world should be leading by example rather than squirreling cash. Simple.

I wouldn't spend my time defending Samsung or John lewis or primark either. I'm not sure why you feel the need to battle on apples behalf on every thread when we both seem to agree they aren't ethical ?
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Old 26-12-2014, 20:51
calico_pie
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Surely some people are missing the point ? The main drive of this, as clearly stated in the programme title, was that apple very publicly stated a while back that they were fixing the problems. This was when the public was first made aware of the issues that were found in factories used by apple and others.

Publicity and interviews stated that apple, the largest company in the world with more cash in the bank than you could imagine, would improve conditions and make life better for those involved in the production of their goods.

The show demonstrated that these were just lies. Just publicity, marketing.....
In order to that the programmed would have needed to make comparisons between conditions in the factory now compared to conditions in the factory then, and show that nothing had changed or improved.

Did the programme do that?

Bearing in mind that independent monitoring seems to suggest that improvements have been made.

Don't confuse "things still aren't perfect" with "nothing is being done.

You might as well argue that no money is being spent on cancer research on the grounds that people still die of cancer.

Without looking at it in some form of context, compared to something else, its meaningless.
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Old 26-12-2014, 20:57
kidspud
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I have often explained my ethics. Wealthiest company in the world should be leading by example rather than squirreling cash. Simple.

I wouldn't spend my time defending Samsung or John lewis or primark either. I'm not sure why you feel the need to battle on apples behalf on every thread when we both seem to agree they aren't ethical ?
And from what I've seen and read, they are leading by example. I also see no evidence of them squirrelling cash.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack apple with selective ethics in every thread you get a chance to.
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Old 26-12-2014, 21:05
Stuart_h
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And from what I've seen and read, they are leading by example. I also see no evidence of them squirrelling cash.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack apple with selective ethics in every thread you get a chance to.
Erm. This is a thread about a documentary that questioned apples ethics ......

Oh .... And ....

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=apple+cash+reserves


Its fairly well documented.
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