I did mention Kylie in my original post and the reason I did is because she is another popstar who is still around over 20 years on from her original success. Even though she's 10 years younger than Madonna, I was trying to think of other artists who are still doing the popstar thing even though they're out of their twenties & thirties. I also thought of Cher who enjoyed a successful tour this year but she hasn't been releasing music as regularly as Madonna or Kylie.

I didn't think about the worldwide sales - sorry about that. I just thought that Kylie's albums would have had higher sales figures than what is listed on Wikipedia since she is still very much in the public eye and like Madonna, she is still very fit, youthful & full of energy for her age.

Kylie has never been a big seller like Madonna. Her first two albums and "Fever" are her only studio albums to go multi-platinum. I think people only compare her to Madonna because they're both over 40 and still around. I understand your point though.

"I clocked the jizz from a friend
Of yours named Vanessa Bet (bet)
She said you told her a fantasy
That got her all wet (wet)
Something about a little box with a
Mirror and a tongue inside
What she told me then got me so hot
I knew that we could slide"

That's the lyrics from Prince's 1991 song Gett Off. Even though I'm not old enough to remember the early '90s I'm sure from what I've read that Prince didn't get criticised anywhere near as much as Madonna did for her Erotica album and Sex Book the year later, yet those lyrics are just as explicit. People don't compare Prince to Bob Dylan and I think the fact that we have to compare Madonna to somebody like Joni Mitchell is proof that we hold women to a different standard than men. Prince has flashed his arse and posed in his underwear. Yes Prince composes and writes all of his material but that's not the point, people have called Madonna a "slut" and "whore" for doing things that many male artists have done.

Janet was just as sexual as Madonna in the 90s and she certainly didn't get half the backlash Madonna did. It wasn't even the Erotica album itself that got the backlash, it was the "Sex" book and music video for "Erotica". If she had never released the "Sex" book and released a video more along the lines of "Justify My Love" for "Erotica" then she wouldn't have received a backlash just like Prince and Janet didn't. "Erotica" was brash and in-your-face while "Justify My Love" was sexy and sensual.

In fact, "Erotica" broke a US radio record for highest airplay debut so people were ready for Madonna. But then the book overshadowed everything and the song descended down the charts. If Prince released a book like that, I'm sure he would have gotten a backlash too.

But Erotica certainly isn't a very explicit video, if you look at it it's a lot classier than many other soft-porn videos at the time. The Sex Book isn't that graphic either.

Have you seen the uncensored Erotica video? It would shock today too.

We see Madonna's tits, a woman in fetish gear being spanked by her, men dancing naked together and her snogging Naomi Campbell. It's not that shocking.

If a silly video like Wrecking Ball generated a ton of controversy, Erotica would "break the internet".

Erotica was very well filmed though. For a mainstream artist, yes it was quite explicit.

I think "Me So Horny" by 2 Live Crew, "Pussy Poppin" by Ludacris or "Tip Drill" by Nelly are far more juvenile and tacky though.

Oh I agree. "Erotica" is one of my favorite Madonna music videos.

janet wasn't anywhere near as sexual as madonna at all. the raunchiest thing she did was the rolling stone cover with her tits covered

skip a few years later and she got a slagging too for the superbowl when she got her nipple out 15-20 years too late

Have you seen this? Forward to 5:00. I'd say that's pretty raunchy - grabbing some guy by his bits & getting him excited on stage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XisfpZJ1m3A

firstly, that's what prince did over 20 years ago. he doesn't do that now. but madonna tries to keep doing the same thing

secondly, prince had considerably stronger lyrics, with songs like sexy MF, with sexy motherf***er repeated through the song, or songs like pussy control, and head, which you can probably imagine from title alone, or others like black MF in the house. prince was responsible for the parental guidance warning labels on records as a result of his lyrics. senator al gores wife tippa created a committe after borrowing her daughters walkman and hearing princes lyrics. they put together a "filthy fifteen" list of tracks they considered obscene, of which the top 2 songs were by written by prince and the number 4 track was by princes's ex girlfriend and protoge

but now when prince plays live, his reviews are all about the music, even if right now he has an awful hairdo and dresses like one of the golden girls

there's no real different standard as pointed out before. if you act a certain way you get treated a certain way. so women who respect themselves get respect back. and it's the same with man. act like a dick and people will treat you like a dick. it's just that there are no other women of the same level of fame as madonna at a similar age who are still acting like a teenager and making music that doesn't particularly appeal the demographic in the same age group as the artist

kylie isn't on the same level as fame as madonna, so will therfore have less critisism, and the same with iggy pop. he's not splashed across mtv and magazines all the time with his top off. he got a slagging when he did insurance ad's. he's not immune to critisism

the thing is, with some artists there is a certain portion of the fanbase who simply can't take criticism, even though they aren't related to the artist and had no input to the artists work, and in most cases haven't even met the artist, and madonna and michael jackson in particular are two artists who had certain fans like that. they are renowned for having fansites where fans are banned for the most ridiculous of reasons, and you certainly can't have an open an fully honest discussion about them as anything taken the wrong way will result in a ban. and if you can discuss the artist you like openly and honestly and read and deal with criticism, then it's probably going to be harder to accept it elsewhere

the bottom line is, why bother what anyone else thinks, if you like it and have no vested commercial interest in it? to me, i personally don't care what anyone else thinks about the music i like, but for commercial reasons knowing what people like and don't like is another kettle of fish entirely. if no-one else like a particular record, i'll just listen to it myself. if i think others will like it then i'll play them it. if i like a band but no-one else does, i won't book them. if everyone else likes a band i don't like, i'll still book em. i'll just go outside when they are playing

i'm sure i have that gig on dvd. all i can say is from a male perspective, it's far from raunchy

the thing about janet is, her first couple of albums were massive flops, then she had the control album, but she didn't have the figure that madonna had. she looked miles better for the rythmn nation album and janet album, but then the music went down the tubes pretty swiftly after that. she was more like kylie style raunchy, very much "approved" so as not to offend. madonna was getting her tits and everything out in books and movies and music videos. 20 years ago she didn't look bad so that was fine, but now it just looks like granny porn, and whilst that's popular with some, it's not so popular with the masses, and not personally what i enjoy

Yes well that's my point, her latest albums Hardy Candy and MDNA haven't been up to her usual standards and are subpar compared to material on the Ray of Light album for example. Calling her "an old whore" isn't constructive criticism and it's something that I've seen a lot of online. That's the difference.

I’ve never known a fan base so smug and yet so insecure than Madonna’s. Why do they always feel the need to belittle another singer or band before getting angry when someone tells them a few home truths? If the OP wants more people to show respect to Madonna then maybe they should show more respect to someone like Kylie. She broke onto the scene just four years after Madonna did.

I’m a big Kylie fan (obviously) but even I'll admit she would get more respect from people if she stopped recording albums like Kiss Me Once and perhaps recorded something a little more deep and edgy. It’s the same with Madonna. How do you expect people to respect her when she continues to record mostly immature and average pop music? She needs to record something that reflects the age she is now and not the age she was decades ago. I had high hopes for Rebel Heart, but the only strong track out of the six I've heard is Ghosttown. I really don't want another Hard Candy/MDNA, but I have a feeling we're going to get one.

I like Kylie and I didn't belittle her or get angry at any point on this thread. I have already explained my reasons for bringing Kylie up in this discussion - she is about the only other over-40 female artist who is still doing the popstar thing - J-Lo is another one who I just thought of but Kylie has been around longer & while Madonna is nicknamed the Queen of Pop, Kylie has been dubbed the Princess of Pop. Just to be clear again, I am not belittling Kylie or anybody else in any way. I just find it strange that Madonna is on the receiving end of comments like "give up", "retire already", "your career is over, grandma" etc even though her album sales are still high enough to be considered a success (even though MDNA was her lowest selling album) but I don't see those comments aimed towards Kylie.

You're missing my point here. I'm not saying that Kylie or any other artist deserves those comments. I'm just questioning why there is so much hate towards Madonna. Obviously it's not universal hate, she still has lots of fans but I'm talking about non-fans going onto forums or comment sections & tearing her to pieces because of her age. It's not something I would ever do. If I don't like an artist, I just don't bother reading articles about them or listening to their music on YouTube etc, never mind leaving nasty comments about them.

I'm certainly not smug about Madonna's success. I'm delighted for her, yes, but smug, no. I like what I've heard so far from Rebel Heart & am really looking forward to hearing the rest of the album. It already seems stronger than MDNA and there's more promotion going into this one so I hope it does well.

Well I think there are a couple key factors about why Madonna receives more hate than Kylie. First of all, she is much more controversial than Kylie ever was and ever will be. Madonna has thrived off of causing a commotion () while Kylie has never courted 1/10th the controversy that Madonna has. Ultimately, I think a lot of people have a "stronger" opinion on Madonna than on Kylie. You either like or dislike Kylie but you either love or hate Madonna. That's just a personal observation I made over the years though. Secondly, Kylie is 10 years younger than Madonna. Just wait until Kylie hits 50. Unfortunately, the same vitriol that is aimed towards Madonna's age will be aimed towards Kylie. When Madonna was 46, I don't remember her having so many comments made about her age. In fact, people were praising her for still putting on a great show and being relevant - the same things people say about Kylie today. It seemed like around the Hard Candy era when she turned 50 that people started taking issue with her age.

J.Lo is an unusual case. She might be 45 but she looks incredible for her age so as long as she keeps looking just as good, she might just escape the public's vitriol. Kylie also looks great for age as does Madonna obviously but they still look older so they weren't able to escape the critics. J.Lo looks just as good now as she did in 1999.

Well, I threw in Iggy Pop and that had some of you defending him on the basis of he does that because he's Iggy Pop or his stripping isn't to do with sex or he isn't as famous as Madonna. Fair enough, although I'm not sure what the level of fame has to do with it and if it isn't a form of sexual exhibition, it's certainly a form of being uninhibited on Iggy's part.

Here's another name then, one of my fav artists Tina Turner was raunchy throughout her career and still doing her thing on stage well into her 60s. I don't remember hearing much criticism there or any mentions of granny porn with Tina.

Should a pop star woman over 55 dress more modestly? Madonna is still a sexual being and like so many people wants to hang on to youth as long as she can. Is this just a matter of Madge should cover up a bit? Kate Bush was looking like a sexy earth mama in the recent pics I saw of her but she was covered up.

All this slating of Madonna's quite funny really. I didn't expect the Madonna of 2014 to be like the Madonna of 1984 but I don't expect her to stop being an attractive woman because she's got older. It's up to her what she wants to write and sing about and how she wants to present it.



The point is that Springsteen, Iggy, Jagger etc are all pensioners prancing around like young guys. Maybe mature guys are allowed to get away with that more than mature women?

Maybe female pop stars use their own sexuality more than men, therefore as they get older the media lose interest faster.

I don't know the media is quite fascinated by pop stars and actors growing old and the cosmetic surgery they use to stay young. We do live in a culture where body image and eternal youth are sought after, I think that's something Madonna must be accutely aware of.

We've also been down that road about female stars and sexuality...plenty of female stars don't flaunt it that much and there are male stars who do.

In regards to your Madonna and Bruce comparison. Is Bruce whipping out his penis on stage and rubbing it to a whole audience?

The major backlash I saw about age throughout the MDNA tour was her whipping out her boobs and rubbing her nipples on stage. It's not something people particularly want to see from someone of that age. Even her fans were a bit that.

So, thats why I think Madonna gets the age backlash.

But what talent has kept her around? It's certainly not her singing ability. Or her writing ability. Or her musicality. Or her dancing.

People need to realise, if you have the right money behind you and the right people as your boss - you WILL be a success.

Madonna remains to be the biggest female media manipulator positive or negative. The fact that she gets so much negative comments and reactions continues to prove that she is relevant that she makes headlines worldwide on a daily basis. The comments usually made about her age, looks etc are usually by idiots who have nothing constructive to say so have to resort to name calling. For some reason Madonna reamains a threat to any other fan base of other female artists. The reason why the likes of Bruce Springsteen etc have not suffered the same level of critique is that they are not seen as a threat to younger or other male solo acts. The level of success both musically and media wise Madonna has had over a thirty year period has only really been see with MJ before. Whilst the likes of Elvis, Beatles Queen etc have had longevity it has been on an iconic status due to there deaths. No other artist has continuesly been in the spotlight for a thirty year period. Disliking Madonnas music and giving an opinion is fine but for some reason due to her success some people need to try and knock it, slate it or just be nasty which says more about themselves as a person. I enjoy reading people's opinions of Madonna positive and negative and frequently can see and agree with both the positive and negative but as soon as I see a post that stoops to slagging off or just making offensive comments I skip past it as it just shows their immaturity and prejudiced thought process.
Regardless of Madonna stripping or anything else people have their own view point what I can never understand is why if it offends or upsets someone why look. Everyone has a choice if your offended you did that to yourself if your repulsed you repulsed yourself and need to take responsibility for yourself and the choice you made not blame
Madonna. As for others who claim they were a fan and it was fine when she was 20 etc but suddenly because she is in her 50's it's not acceptable it's not mafonna who has changed its you and your viewpoint of age. Unfortunately as Madonna created the brand people are always going to compare and she is always going to be a flop in someone's eyes because like every artist they have a peak that everyone makes comparisons to. At the end of the day she continues to have a huge fan base and as far as concerts go she will always be a big draw. As for sales the music industry as a whole is in a complete mess and it's not just Mafonna who is struggling how to market rebrand etc. on the whole with a few exceptions each year sales of albums has diminished.
Kylie is an interesting comparison in the UK although not worldwide. What was interesting is how dramatically her tour sales have dropped within a short time period. Lady Gaga also really struggled to sell her venues in 2014. Although Live Nation figures claimed sell outs you just needed to look at attendance figures to realise that these were manipulated.
IMO the tastes of music and sway of what people want to see has changed vastly the past few years. If you look at the charts and tour sales in the UK people are listening and buying acoustic type artists. People aren't so interested in big spectacle shows so it will be interesting to see how Madonna fares if she tours in 2015.

All of these and none of them. She's a creative artist working through a number of media forms, music principally but not exclusively. Her success is perplexing for some people it seems but she is very effective at what she does. You are all so tied up in what you think a pop star should be that she falls right through your understanding. Smart girl really.


And that is relevant to Madonna in what way?