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  • Strictly Come Dancing
The celebs with the best pre-competition training were both male
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apenny4them
24-12-2014
The point I was trying to make with my opening post - which seems to have been overlooked by the posters who have been arguing that all previous dance training should be declared in the Launch Show (how does that help viewers who don't see the Launch Show?) - is that greater transparency in that area could only be achieved effectively if an expert provided an analysis quantifying the advantage the celeb has by virtue of that training.

Take last year for example. All the focus was upon the advantage Natalie had. I don't recall anybody pointing out the monumental advantage Abbey had, which (although we didn't know it at the time) meant she already had the Glitterball in the bag before she walked into the Training Room.

Jake would undoubtedly have won this year had more of his EE fans bothered to pick up the phone.

Harry Judd was another example of a celeb who had such a monumental advantage when he first walked into the Training Room that he already had the Glitterball in the bag.

Yet none of the above had anywhere near the dance training of the top three girls this year.

How meaningful was Caroline's prior training? Her first Latin - the Cha Cha Cha - demonstrated flawed footwork despite three weeks of training. Her first slow Ballroom - the Waltz - demonstrated flawed footwork and poor frame, and landed her in the Dance-off.

Yet Jake sailed through to the Quarter Final because his performance skills substantially outweighed the flaws in his technique.

There was less focus upon Caroline's prior training for the simple reason that people could see it hadn't given her anywhere near the head start Pixie and Frankie had. There was no mention of the head start Jake had (other than an early acting course).

Complete transparency on prior dance training would only make sense if there was complete transparency on everything with the potential to give a celeb an advantage - which would have to include inherent advantages such as the flair for gymnastics as a kid one assumes Caroline must have had.

Where do you draw the line?
Veri
24-12-2014
Originally Posted by LazySusan:
“Yes but they do seem to on the Caroline trained dancer thread as many are making a big deal of that for some reason.”

It deserves a bigger deal than the things the first post mentions.

The one about Jake is just the tired old argument that other things give advantages too; and the one about Simon doesn't give him more training than Caroline. Neither gives them "the best pre-competition training".

Re "The prior training of the other celebs gave them a head start, but it's what happens in the Training Room which makes all the difference in SCD." -- that's not what head starts normally do. They normally make some difference, rather than something else making "all the difference" so that the head start makes none.
Veri
24-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“The point I was trying to make with my opening post - which seems to have been overlooked by the posters who have been arguing that all previous dance training should be declared in the Launch Show (how does that help viewers who don't see the Launch Show?) - is that greater transparency in that area could only be achieved effectively if an expert provided an analysis quantifying the advantage the celeb has by virtue of that training.”

Greater transparency than we have now could be achieved much more easily than that.

Quote:
“Take last year for example. All the focus was upon the advantage Natalie had. I don't recall anybody pointing out the monumental advantage Abbey had, which (although we didn't know it at the time) meant she already had the Glitterball in the bag before she walked into the Training Room.”

What monumental advantage did Abbey have? Perhaps people didn't point it out because -- like me -- they have no idea what it might be.

Quote:
“Jake would undoubtedly have won this year had more of his EE fans bothered to pick up the phone.”

How can you possibly know that? We don't know how many EE viewers are his "fans"; and we don't know how many voted in SCD.

Quote:
“Harry Judd was another example of a celeb who had such a monumental advantage when he first walked into the Training Room that he already had the Glitterball in the bag.”

What was Harry Judd's "monumental advantage"?

In any case, the existence of other forms of advantage does not negate the significance of dance training or mean that celebs (and SCD) shouldn't come clean about what dance training and experience they've had.

Quote:
“Yet none of the above had anywhere near the dance training of the top three girls this year.

How meaningful was Caroline's prior training? Her first Latin - the Cha Cha Cha - demonstrated flawed footwork despite three weeks of training. Her first slow Ballroom - the Waltz - demonstrated flawed footwork and poor frame, and landed her in the Dance-off.”

That she was able to progress so rapidly and get the judges giving her 40 after 40 suggests rather strongly that her prior training was very significant.

Quote:
“Yet Jake sailed through to the Quarter Final because his performance skills substantially outweighed the flaws in his technique.

There was less focus upon Caroline's prior training for the simple reason that people could see it hadn't given her anywhere near the head start Pixie and Frankie had. There was no mention of the head start Jake had (other than an early acting course).”

There was less focus on Caroline's training because she was popular (so that few were motivated to raise the issue) and because we didn't know that much about it. (Even in this forum, there didn't seem to be a clear idea of what her training had been -- until the Mail article filled in some of the specifics.) And it gave her quite near the head start Pixie and Frankie had; it most likely even helped her more in the end.

(Not that we actually know how much of a head start Pixie and Frankie had, since we didn't see what they were like when they began their SCD training.)

Quote:
“Complete transparency on prior dance training would only make sense if there was complete transparency on everything with the potential to give a celeb an advantage - which would have to include inherent advantages such as the flair for gymnastics as a kid one assumes Caroline must have had.

Where do you draw the line?”

Let's draw the line at prior dance training and experience. That's what would make the most sense, and it's what most people here have seemed to want over the years. That and any extra training during SCD.

All that about other advantages etc is just the usual sort of attempt, which we see every time such issues are raised, to muddy the waters and distract from Caroline and SCD's failure to give viewers a sufficiently good idea of how much training and experience she'd had.
jeffiner1892
24-12-2014
What monumental Abbey advantage? Where would a model have had previous dance training?
*Topaz*
24-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“For sure everybody is SOMEBODY else's weirdo. But out of curiosity, what is it about Gregg that you find unpleasant?”

IMO he's an awful judge/presenter on Masterchef - he comes across as aggressive and overbearing on the show, I also didn't like the way he fawned over the attractive female contestants.......I don't watch it anymore because of his histrionics.

If you google him there's numerous unflattering stories about him both in the press and on forums - I guess you could argue that it's tabloid sensationalism - but IMO there's too much stuff out there for there not to be some truth in them.

A few examples I can think of his him refusing to retweet on behalf of a cancer charity because they spelt his name wrong and him saying on the Alan Carr show that women judges wouldn't work on 'Masterchef' because it's a 'blokey' thing. I'm just glad he was eliminated early in strictly - he's always been one my nightmare contestants.
apenny4them
24-12-2014
Originally Posted by jeffiner1892:
“What monumental Abbey advantage? Where would a model have had previous dance training?”

A top model's expertise in striking poses comes in rather handy for delivering perfectly the frame demanded of the SCD Ballroom routines.

Provided the posture is right, with a girl as attractive and elegant as Abbey the average viewer isn't going to notice footwork flaws and gapping unless the judges mention them.

In Abbey's case it suited their agenda to turn a blind eye - so she was already perfect in Ballroom by Week 1.
*Topaz*
24-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A top model's expertise in striking poses comes in rather handy for delivering perfectly the frame demanded of the SCD Ballroom routines.

Provided the posture is right, with a girl as attractive and elegant as Abbey the average viewer isn't going to notice footwork flaws and gapping unless the judges mention them.

In Abbey's case it suited their agenda to turn a blind eye - so she was already perfect in Ballroom by Week 1.”

She was also part of a girl group and apparently had dance classes for choreography they did - although not much was known about it because the group didn't take off. I think it's also been said she did a bit of ballroom with Brendan as part of a task on BNTM.

Also according to someone on this forum, her brother spoke to one one of the Liverpool weekly newspapers when her name was was announced as one of the contestants and said she'd started practising for Strictly when she got the call from producers that she'd been accepted for the show. If it's true then since she hadn't been paired with Aljaz at that point, I think we can safely say it wasn't with him she did the training.

All this didn't make her a trained dancer before strictly but IMO it would given her advantages over genuine beginners and was at odds with the 'novice', 'journey' storyline the producers gave her. It makes me laugh now because whenever you even dared suggest on this forum that she wasn't a complete dance novice - you'd be rounded on by her over zealous fans.
HALibutt
24-12-2014
This thread is a load of bunkum and hogwash.
Twinkle toes no
24-12-2014
God! Who cares any more.
HALibutt
25-12-2014
There have been no reports of any of the male contestants having 3 years training at a dance school as far as I know.........

End of.
apenny4them
26-12-2014
Originally Posted by HALibutt:
“There have been no reports of any of the male contestants having 3 years training at a dance school as far as I know.........

End of.”

Allow me to bring you up to speed then. Caroline's "dance school" training was common knowledge in this forum. I detailed it myself in a thread titled "Some ringers are ringier than others" -

[ Caroline went on the musical theatre course at the BodyWork studios in Glisson Road, Petersfield, aged 16, which she paid for by working in a pork factory and as a magician's assistant and a waitress. ]

I could be wrong though - "3 years training at a dance school" seems a rather unusual interpretation of evening classes in musical theatre.

However, musical theatre evening classes when she was a teenager do seem to fit far more comfortably with Caroline having trailed Pixie, Frankie and Jake until late in the Competition.

And the loss of balance twice in the Quarter-final AT, the flawed footwork and posture in the Semi-final Foxtrot and the clumsy early attempts at lifts in the training vids were all pointers to a lack of prior dance training.

A handful of supporters of other celebs are trying to console themselves by clinging to the notion that their celebs would have deservedly won had every potential voter out there known about Caroline's prior training.

But the fact of the matter is that even if the Launch Show and every program in the series had included a section detailing the dance and musical theatre training of every celeb for the benefit of voters who couldn't be bothered to access the BBC site, it wouldn't have changed a thing.

As with every series, the performances in the first few weeks tell the viewers which celebs have a head start.
HALibutt
26-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“Allow me to bring you up to speed then. Caroline's "dance school" training was common knowledge in this forum. I detailed it myself in a thread titled "Some ringers are ringier than others" -

[ Caroline went on the musical theatre course at the BodyWork studios in Glisson Road, Petersfield, aged 16, which she paid for by working in a pork factory and as a magician's assistant and a waitress. ]

I could be wrong though - "3 years training at a dance school" seems a rather unusual interpretation of evening classes in musical theatre.

However, musical theatre evening classes when she was a teenager do seem to fit far more comfortably with Caroline having trailed Pixie, Frankie and Jake until late in the Competition.

And the loss of balance twice in the Quarter-final AT, the flawed footwork and posture in the Semi-final Foxtrot and the clumsy early attempts at lifts in the training vids were all pointers to a lack of prior dance training.

A handful of supporters of other celebs are trying to console themselves by clinging to the notion that their celebs would have deservedly won had every potential voter out there known about Caroline's prior training.

But the fact of the matter is that even if the Launch Show and every program in the series had included a section detailing the dance and musical theatre training of every celeb for the benefit of voters who couldn't be bothered to access the BBC site, it wouldn't have changed a thing.

As with every series, the performances in the first few weeks tell the viewers which celebs have a head start.”


It's still more dance training than ANY of the male contestants have had, which is rather my point and what I thought this thread was about.
aggs
26-12-2014
Originally Posted by jeffiner1892:
“What monumental Abbey advantage? Where would a model have had previous dance training?”

She had a group dance lesson with Brendan in one of the Next Top Model episodes - does that count?
apenny4them
26-12-2014
Originally Posted by HALibutt:
“It's still more dance training than ANY of the male contestants have had, which is rather my point and what I thought this thread was about.”

A perfectly understandable mistake - I should have taken more care over my choice of words.

When I referred in the opening sentence of the thread to Jake's "training" as an actor, I should have made it clear I was referring to his "non-dance training" as an actor -

"Considering how poor was his technique throughout, Jake couldn't possibly have made the Semi-final without his training as an actor."

The real point of the thread is that the ability of a celeb to replicate steps taught in the Training Room is just the start. Unless the celeb also has something which motivates viewers to vote, he/she is never going to win the Competition.

Conversely - the Competition has been won by celebs with mediocre footwork.

Caroline's footwork in the Latin routines was excellent by the end of the Competition. But the reason why so many viewers voted for her is encapsulated in the way she looks at Pasha as he turns away from her just before the lift which brings their Showdance to a close.
HALibutt
26-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A perfectly understandable mistake - I should have taken more care over my choice of words.

When I referred in the opening sentence of the thread to Jake's "training" as an actor, I should have made it clear I was referring to his "non-dance training" as an actor -

"Considering how poor was his technique throughout, Jake couldn't possibly have made the Semi-final without his training as an actor."

The real point of the thread is that the ability of a celeb to replicate steps taught in the Training Room is just the start. Unless the celeb also has something which motivates viewers to vote, he/she is never going to win the Competition.

Conversely - the Competition has been won by celebs with mediocre footwork.

Caroline's footwork in the Latin routines was excellent by the end of the Competition. But the reason why so many viewers voted for her is encapsulated in the way she looks at Pasha as he turns away from her just before the lift which brings their Showdance to a close.”

I haven't made a mistake. Dance training is a completely different thing to training as an actor when it comes to a dancing competition!

Yes, the contestants have to be likeable to win but that isn't the point of this thread.
Bedlam_maid
26-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A perfectly understandable mistake - I should have taken more care over my choice of words.

When I referred in the opening sentence of the thread to Jake's "training" as an actor, I should have made it clear I was referring to his "non-dance training" as an actor -

"Considering how poor was his technique throughout, Jake couldn't possibly have made the Semi-final without his training as an actor."

The real point of the thread is that the ability of a celeb to replicate steps taught in the Training Room is just the start. Unless the celeb also has something which motivates viewers to vote, he/she is never going to win the Competition.

Conversely - the Competition has been won by celebs with mediocre footwork.

Caroline's footwork in the Latin routines was excellent by the end of the Competition. But the reason why so many viewers voted for her is encapsulated in the way she looks at Pasha as he turns away from her just before the lift which brings their Showdance to a close.”

Really?
missfrankiecat
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A top model's expertise in striking poses comes in rather handy for delivering perfectly the frame demanded of the SCD Ballroom routines.

Provided the posture is right, with a girl as attractive and elegant as Abbey the average viewer isn't going to notice footwork flaws and gapping unless the judges mention them.

In Abbey's case it suited their agenda to turn a blind eye - so she was already perfect in Ballroom by Week 1.”

I have seldom read a more far-fetched theory than this.
If modelling experience and achievement is a good substitute for actual dance training, how on earth did Jerry Hall, one of the world's top photographic and catwalk models for decades, fail so miserably?
(the idea that Abbey Clancy is/was a 'top model' is in itself laughable - she's primarily a lads' mag/lingerie model/wag whose poses largely involve showing her chest)
Jennifer_F
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A top model's expertise in striking poses comes in rather handy for delivering perfectly the frame demanded of the SCD Ballroom routines.

Provided the posture is right, with a girl as attractive and elegant as Abbey the average viewer isn't going to notice footwork flaws and gapping unless the judges mention them.

In Abbey's case it suited their agenda to turn a blind eye - so she was already perfect in Ballroom by Week 1.”

I'm sorry but this is utter rubbish.
j4Rose
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A top model's expertise in striking poses comes in rather handy for delivering perfectly the frame demanded of the SCD Ballroom routines.

Provided the posture is right, with a girl as attractive and elegant as Abbey the average viewer isn't going to notice footwork flaws and gapping unless the judges mention them.

In Abbey's case it suited their agenda to turn a blind eye - so she was already perfect in Ballroom by Week 1.”

The vast majority of models on DWTS have been terrible. What a terrible argument.
Muggsy
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by apenny4them:
“A top model's expertise in striking poses comes in rather handy for delivering perfectly the frame demanded of the SCD Ballroom routines.

Provided the posture is right, with a girl as attractive and elegant as Abbey the average viewer isn't going to notice footwork flaws and gapping unless the judges mention them.

In Abbey's case it suited their agenda to turn a blind eye - so she was already perfect in Ballroom by Week 1.”

This must be the explanation for the incredible success in ballroom of Jerry Hall and Jodie Kidd, both of whose modelling careers are in a completely different league to Abbey's.
daziechain
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by HALibutt:
“I haven't made a mistake. Dance training is a completely different thing to training as an actor when it comes to a dancing competition!

Yes, the contestants have to be likeable to win but that isn't the point of this thread.”

It's not though ... often we've seen contestants having to have lessons from acting coaches ... Louis Smith for example because it doesn't matter if your footwork is meticulous if you have all the expression of a block of wood. Sunetra managed to get through many a flawed dance by acting it out convincingly.
apenny4them
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by Muggsy:
“This must be the explanation for the incredible success in ballroom of Jerry Hall and Jodie Kidd, both of whose modelling careers are in a completely different league to Abbey's.”

Jerry Hall would have been 56 when she did Strictly. Perhaps she'd lost some of the suppleness, dexterity and core strength she had when she was a top model. From memory she looked as stiff as Judy Murray.

Jodie Kidd offers a better comparison - 30 when she did Strictly as opposed to Abbey's 27.

Notice how much better were the scores for her Ballroom routines -

Week - Scores - Dance

2 ....... 5 ... 6 ... 7 ... 7 ....... Foxtrot
4 ....... 4 ... 6 ... 6 ... 6 ....... Rumba
5 ....... 7 ... 7 ... 8 ... 8 ....... American Smooth
6 ....... 6 ... 6 ... 7 ... 7 ....... Paso Doble
7 ....... 7 ... 8 ... 8 ... 8 ....... Waltz
8 ....... 3 ... 6 ... 7 ... 7 ....... Samba
9 ....... 7 ... 8 ... 9 ... 9 ....... Quickstep
10 ..... 7 ... 7 ... 8 ... 8 ....... Jive

However, Jodie competed in Series 6 against the likes of Rachel Stevens, Lisa Snowdon, Tom Chambers and Austin Healey - so the judges would have had less reason to overmark her.

The most technically-challenging Latin - the Samba - was predictably her worst dance.

Aljaz could never have taught Abbey to Samba in the time available. But he had the luxury of being able to choreograph a simple routine he knew Abbey could handle, knowing the judges would turn a blind eye to the absence of Samba content.

I suspect the 39 awarded to Abbey's "Samba" could make it the most overmarked routine in SCD history. The Samba is all about fluid movement throughout the entire body. Abbey's upper body movement resembled Jerry Hall's.

Proper Samba - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGHK0k-xzZk

Abbey Samba - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcuKwfbTOFY

The point - once again - is that what won Abbey the Glitterball she already had when she first walked into the Training Room.

If anybody here wants to voice disagreement, kindly have the courtesy to point to something in Abbey's technique the rest of us can see was a lot better in Week 13 than it was in Week 1.
*Topaz*
27-12-2014
Jerry Hall was also really lazy as far as I recall - she actually boasted in her VTs about how little she had trained! And then of course she had Anton as her pro partner.........but then again she was actually a real cat walk/fashion 'top model' in her day.

Jodie Kidd was actually a real trier - a great partnership with Ian, I expected to dislike her but I ended up quite enjoying her as a contestant - she was better at ballroom but did a few surprisingly quite good Latin dances especially when you consider her height, she wasn't the best in her year because she was in a really competitive year and again another actual 'top model' in her day.
Monaogg
27-12-2014
Wasn't Lisa Snowdon also a model?
*Topaz*
27-12-2014
Originally Posted by Monaogg:
“Wasn't Lisa Snowdon also a model?”

Yes she still is a model. She's been on of the regular faces of M&S campaigns. I think she's more known for presenting these days though.
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