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Bin Lorry Crashes Into Pedestrians - Glasgow |
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#1326 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 15,305
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Quote:
Apart from that being highly offensive to HGV drivers, how would this have helped?
I trust HGV drivers far more than car drivers, they have done far more driver training in order to be able to drive trucks than car drivers have. As I have written several times, such work is so stressful and it is hard work, far more so then standard driving, it takes its toll. My suggestion has nothing to do with HGV training. Quote:
Apart from the fact that would only pick up those whose condition (whatever it is) is triggered by exercise, I don't think the government and its friends in the Road Haulage Association would really want to do anything that would exacerbate the already chronic shortage of LGV drivers that the UK faces.
It's very likely such a test would have weeded out this driver. As for only picking up conditions triggered by exercise, that would be a start. As I wrote earlier long distant HGV drivers have to take a break, and show they have, it's blanket regulations, brought in to save live, those of the HGV drivers and public safety and it's worked against large opposition to the move. There has to be a willingness to act, to help prevent such a tragedy occurring again, a chronic shortage of HGV drivers if such a tread mill test/condition was introduced is better then a chronic shortage of Glasgow citizens. |
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#1327 |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 20,674
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Oh dear, quite a bit of doctor bashing going on today re the Inquiry. https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim
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#1328 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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Hey, if we followed your over-reaction and applied it to all drivers it would certainly reduce the number of cars on the road.
Just thunk of the number of people that have condition that could make them ill and the wheel and lose control, like the old fogies who are a menace anyway. |
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#1329 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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I think that the concern about the quality of medical examinations is a bit of a red herring.
How many serious crashes are caused by someone collapsing at the wheel, which would have been identified by earlier medical tests? Would these tests have also identified some false positives, of people who might show up as a risk but in fact could carry on driving without any problems. If a medical test is effective at identifying those likely to collapse who do go on to collapse, without identifying too many as at risk of collapse who don't collapse, then maybe it is a good idea. But I don't think there's any point in a knee jerk reaction that costs a lot of money, may put a lot of people out of work, and is unproven as a remedy. I think that jumping up and down about the medical profession ignores the main point. If someone knows that they have a history of blacking out, THEY should not drive. It shouldn't need a doctor to do tests to determine that someone may collapse, the driver himself knows (through his own experience) that he is not safe. If this is the case, it is up to him to stop driving, or at least honestly open up to his doctor (in case the doctor is able to offer treatment/cure for the problem). But until the problem is resolved (if it ever is), he should not drive. If such a driver carries on driving, then his behavior is reckless. If found out he should be banned. If he has a crash due to this (known) condition, then he should be punished accordingly. Dangerous driving, or an equivalent. At the end of the day it is up to the driver to make sure he is safe to drive, it's not up to the medical profession to have to try and catch him. |
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#1330 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 10,241
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Quote:
I think that the concern about the quality of medical examinations is a bit of a red herring.
How many serious crashes are caused by someone collapsing at the wheel, which would have been identified by earlier medical tests? Would these tests have also identified some false positives, of people who might show up as a risk but in fact could carry on driving without any problems. If a medical test is effective at identifying those likely to collapse who do go on to collapse, without identifying too many as at risk of collapse who don't collapse, then maybe it is a good idea. But I don't think there's any point in a knee jerk reaction that costs a lot of money, may put a lot of people out of work, and is unproven as a remedy. I think that jumping up and down about the medical profession ignores the main point. If someone knows that they have a history of blacking out, THEY should not drive. It shouldn't need a doctor to do tests to determine that someone may collapse, the driver himself knows (through his own experience) that he is not safe. If this is the case, it is up to him to stop driving, or at least honestly open up to his doctor (in case the doctor is able to offer treatment/cure for the problem). But until the problem is resolved (if it ever is), he should not drive. If such a driver carries on driving, then his behavior is reckless. If found out he should be banned. If he has a crash due to this (known) condition, then he should be punished accordingly. Dangerous driving, or an equivalent. At the end of the day it is up to the driver to make sure he is safe to drive, it's not up to the medical profession to have to try and catch him. |
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#1331 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,425
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The more I read about this mans lies the more I feel sick.. he should never be allowed to drive again..
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#1332 |
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,474
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Quote:
I think that the concern about the quality of medical examinations is a bit of a red herring.
How many serious crashes are caused by someone collapsing at the wheel, which would have been identified by earlier medical tests? Would these tests have also identified some false positives, of people who might show up as a risk but in fact could carry on driving without any problems. If a medical test is effective at identifying those likely to collapse who do go on to collapse, without identifying too many as at risk of collapse who don't collapse, then maybe it is a good idea. But I don't think there's any point in a knee jerk reaction that costs a lot of money, may put a lot of people out of work, and is unproven as a remedy. I think that jumping up and down about the medical profession ignores the main point. If someone knows that they have a history of blacking out, THEY should not drive. It shouldn't need a doctor to do tests to determine that someone may collapse, the driver himself knows (through his own experience) that he is not safe. If this is the case, it is up to him to stop driving, or at least honestly open up to his doctor (in case the doctor is able to offer treatment/cure for the problem). But until the problem is resolved (if it ever is), he should not drive. If such a driver carries on driving, then his behavior is reckless. If found out he should be banned. If he has a crash due to this (known) condition, then he should be punished accordingly. Dangerous driving, or an equivalent. At the end of the day it is up to the driver to make sure he is safe to drive, it's not up to the medical profession to have to try and catch him. |
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#1333 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: London
Posts: 4,058
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The more I read this, the more I'm convinced this man should be charged. I just cannot get out of my head about the poor victims who were going about their normal business over Christmas and the next minute they're gone.
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#1334 |
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Devon
Posts: 12,838
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We used to deport criminals to Australia for nicking a loaf of bread, a life or death sentence.
I would suggest the driver felt he would be OK, like 99 out of a hundred who shouldn't be driving. |
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#1335 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 15,305
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Quote:
I think that the concern about the quality of medical examinations is a bit of a red herring.
How many serious crashes are caused by someone collapsing at the wheel, which would have been identified by earlier medical tests? Would these tests have also identified some false positives, of people who might show up as a risk but in fact could carry on driving without any problems. If a medical test is effective at identifying those likely to collapse who do go on to collapse, without identifying too many as at risk of collapse who don't collapse, then maybe it is a good idea. But I don't think there's any point in a knee jerk reaction that costs a lot of money, may put a lot of people out of work, and is unproven as a remedy. There are a lot of dead people out of work to. Usually an effective remedy can only be proved if put to the test. It doesn't really matter if its a HGV or a car bearing down on you, it going to be serious injury or death, although a 15 ton bin lorry, behind which is a man who suffers blackouts, the results are going to be foregone conclusion. There will always be false positives in any kind of test but the fact they are noticed/flagged is a good start and can be investigated and this has to be the case with HGV and PSV drivers. You cannot rely on drivers who rely on driving as a living to be honest, its asking to much. To be fair to HGV and PSV drivers of those weeded out with such a test many may not even realise they have a potential problem. They may not like it but most I bet would not want to be responsible for a death and would want to know about health issues, after all these men have families to, even at the expense of their HGV/PSV driving for a living. Such a test would not be about catching HGV/PSV drivers out but catching them and what other profession but a medical one could do this. |
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#1336 |
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 5,899
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Quote:
As I wrote earlier long distant HGV drivers have to take a break, and show they have, it's blanket regulations, brought in to save live, those of the HGV drivers and public safety and it's worked against large opposition to the move.
There has to be a willingness to act, to help prevent such a tragedy occurring again, a chronic shortage of HGV drivers if such a tread mill test/condition was introduced is better then a chronic shortage of Glasgow citizens. For instance how long do you think the Working Time Directive will last if there's a vote to leave the EU? |
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#1337 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Over there
Posts: 14,833
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Quote:
The more I read this, the more I'm convinced this man should be charged. I just cannot get out of my head about the poor victims who were going about their normal business over Christmas and the next minute they're gone.
He certainly isn't the psychopathic seriel killer that some are making out but I do feel he should be charged. 6 people lost their lives that day as a direct result of Harry Clarke trying to cover up his medical problems. That is just unforgivable. Incidentally - and I know this doesn't really count for much - I saw a photo of Mr Clarke in the paper today - it was the first proper, good quality photo I'd seen of him since this happened. He really is the picture of poor health. |
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#1338 |
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Inactive Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 17,902
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Quote:
The self reporting itself is so delayed it's ridiculous. My OH suffered a depressed skull fracture and had surgery. He was at risk from seizures and black outs and such. We reported it when it happened, and the DVLA took 6 months to tell him he couldn't drive. Of course, he hadn't driven anyway. But the fact it took so long, and he could have been driving, shocked us.
Relatives of those killed are now taking legal action against Lufthansa. Self reporting is a ridiculous loophole wide open for abuse and hopefully will now be closed as a result of the bin lorry accident in Glasgow. There was no such thing as 'self reporting' to the DVLA at one time so it's hardly rocket science to revert back. Regards your personal experience, the period of which the DVLA revoked your husbands licence will go from the date the DVLA MB were informed of his illness...not when notification arrived at DVLA office. At that point he would (should) also have received written confirmation back of the date at which he could apply to have his licence restored. The crazy time delays involved will be down to little more than gross understaffing. At one time it was relatively simple to phone the DVLA and speak to an assistant. That's nigh on impossible now. By the way, even though your husband lost his licence it's not referred to as 'a ban' even though it may feel like it. He hasn't committed any motoring offence! His licence remains intact throughout the period it's revoked and once restored he will simply need to inform any insurance companies that he is "DVLA aware" meaning that they have knowledge of his medical history. |
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#1339 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 15,305
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Afraid you're swimming against the tide with those comments.
For instance how long do you think the Working Time Directive will last if there's a vote to leave the EU? |
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#1340 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,674
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Quote:
The problem is, other than being scared of creating carnage (which strangely this man doesn't seem to be as he lied yet again to get his HGV licence back just four months after the accident) there isn't any incentive for a dishonest person to report it. The Crown Office has ruled that if a person goes unconscious at the wheel they can't be held responsible for anything that happens and the person walks away to do it again. It seems only the scale of this and the up and coming inquiry meant his HGV licence was removed again.
However, if they have a history of blacking out without warning, then they know it may happen at any time they are driving. It is irresponsible to drive in those circumstances. Then if it happens, that is no longer an accident. It was foreseeable and preventable. |
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#1341 |
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 4,213
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The inquiry heard today that Clarke had been to see his GP over 300 times between 1976 and 2008.
There's no detail for each and every visit, unfortunately, but one reporter has tweeted 'Dr Rutherford says he doesn't think he's "ever seen a patients notes quite like Mr Clarke's", with so much dizziness noted'. |
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#1342 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Planet grumpy
Posts: 3,071
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I still find it difficult to imagine just quite how he felt able to ask for his HGV licence to be reinstated, just four months after his vehicle killed six people.
Stunning callousness and insensitivity to say the very least. |
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#1343 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Over there
Posts: 14,833
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Stunning callousness and insensitivity to say the very least.
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#1344 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,425
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...and with a complete disregard at putting even more peoples' lives at risk!
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#1345 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,425
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Quote:
I'm the same. I do still feel really sorry for the driver, after all this was an accident. An accident that could have been prevented had he not have lied about his medical history, however.
He certainly isn't the psychopathic seriel killer that some are making out but I do feel he should be charged. 6 people lost their lives that day as a direct result of Harry Clarke trying to cover up his medical problems. That is just unforgivable. Incidentally - and I know this doesn't really count for much - I saw a photo of Mr Clarke in the paper today - it was the first proper, good quality photo I'd seen of him since this happened. He really is the picture of poor health. |
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#1346 |
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Devon
Posts: 12,838
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What grade of Piano Wire do you want to hang him by?
Your obsession is odd. |
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#1347 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 15,305
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What grade of Piano Wire do you want to hang him by?
Your obsession is odd. |
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#1348 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,425
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What grade of Piano Wire do you want to hang him by?
Your obsession is odd. |
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#1349 |
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Devon
Posts: 12,838
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If he turns out to be an evil manipulating person, then fair dos. It will be clarified later.
Don't become part of the Lynch Mob until all the facts are known. |
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#1350 |
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Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 12,425
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Quote:
If he turns out to be an evil manipulating person, then fair dos. It will be clarified later.
Don't become part of the Lynch Mob until all the facts are known. |
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