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Old 13-01-2015, 00:35
Colin_London
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Does anyone know whether new cars with TMC are now being fitted with DAB-TMC in addition to RDS-TMC?

A car I am looking at has TMC and DAB+. From the Wikipedia entry on TMC it appears to suggest that the TMC service used by car manufacturers is the RDS-TMC INRIX service run via Classic FM, whereas the Trafficmaster RDS-TMC service broadcasts via Global Radio stations on FM ... and a DAB-TMC version on Digital One?

However INRIX also seem to run a TPEG Service on Digital One. Do any car navigation systems actually use this TPEG service?

(Edit: The INRIX DAB Service appears to be used by Garmin 'Digital Traffic' products but I cannot see whether it is used by any manufacturer fitted systems).
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Old 13-01-2015, 09:34
Bangers
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I believe that Toyota were the first car manufacturer to use TPEG on factory fitted headunits from 2012. Not sure if their source is Traffic Master or INRIX though.

What car are you looking at?

Usually when one car manufacturer does something it doesn't take long for the others to copy!
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Old 13-01-2015, 10:33
Gerry1
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My standalone Garmin nuvi 2598LMT-D uses the Inrix service on DAB. The 'D' stands for Digital. It drops back to FM if there's no DAB signal.

Given that car manufacturers seem to know nothing about technology (at least when it comes to car radios, DAB and aerials) I wouldn't be at all surprised if their built-in navigation systems still use the Electro Gyro Cator ...
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:24
Colin_London
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I believe that Toyota were the first car manufacturer to use TPEG on factory fitted headunits from 2012. Not sure if their source is Traffic Master or INRIX though.

What car are you looking at?

Usually when one car manufacturer does something it doesn't take long for the others to copy!
A Volvo - but a bit more googling suggests it's going to be an RDS version:

http://www.mediamobile.com/index.php...ith-volvo-cars

Plus using trafficmaster. So as that's only available on Global FM stations (not Classic FM which is INRIX) presumably it just won't work outside the southern half of England

Can't believe that in 2014 they'd cut a deal to use an FM only solution, especially when Norway is closing national FM in a few years time.
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Old 13-01-2015, 19:36
hanssolo
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A Volvo - but a bit more googling suggests it's going to be an RDS version:

http://www.mediamobile.com/index.php...ith-volvo-cars

Plus using trafficmaster. So as that's only available on Global FM stations (not Classic FM which is INRIX) presumably it just won't work outside the southern half of England

Can't believe that in 2014 they'd cut a deal to use an FM only solution, especially when Norway is closing national FM in a few years time.
Although Volvo has now DAB as standard
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2013/06/new-...b-as-standard/
And Mediamobile is part of VDL which has been supplying DAB kit in many countries, plus Trafficmaster Tpeg is on D1 in the UK.
http://www.http://www.mediamobile.co...adio-in-france
For the experiment, Continental and its partners have set up a DAB radio network in Rambouillet, in the outskirts of Paris, featuring all the technical infrastructure needed to collect content and programmes, perform encoding – and broadcast.

The broadcasted radio programmes and information services are picked up by and displayed on the embedded Continental system.

As well as providing radio programmes with HD sound and accompanying multimedia content, Continental’s on-board system offers two V-Traffic services, based on the TPEG1 protocol:
Interesting that Radio France is taking part, perhaps Radio France will finally appear on DAB+ after resisting it for a long time?
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Old 13-01-2015, 20:10
Colin_London
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Although Volvo has now DAB as standard
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2013/06/new-...b-as-standard/
And Mediamobile is part of VDL which has been supplying DAB kit in many countries, plus Trafficmaster Tpeg is on D1 in the UK.
Indeed - a DAB+ radio but only RDS-TMC. I suspect that the radio in the music system has no direct bearing on the TMC receiver however which is probably a separate FM receiver in the Nav unit, leading to suspicions that the continued use of RDS-TMC is more about cost saving than anything else.

As you say Mediamobile has been involved in TPEG implementations elsewhere, and the V-Traffic service includes TPEG as an option, but maybe it just doesn't have sufficiently widespread coverage yet to merit its fit as standard in production cars (apart from Toyota perhaps). Although the national German and UK DAB coverage would have helped you would have thought!

So, anyone have a list of transmitters used by Trafficmaster RDS-TMC?
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Old 13-01-2015, 20:30
Colin_London
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Interesting paper here (apologies for the Google link to an RTF document).

It's says that vehicles will still be on sale with RDS-TMC during 2015-17 due to manufacturers lead times, but this particular deal was only done last year
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Old 13-01-2015, 20:31
Gerry1
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Can't believe that in 2014 they'd cut a deal to use an FM only solution, especially when Norway is closing national FM in a few years time.
I can. Most manufacturers can't see beyond the end of their noses.

Buy a £60k Tesla and you'll find it comes with only a pathetic FM & MW radio. You can have DAB, for only £2000 (sic) more. And then it doesn't even work properly because it's missing an outside aerial.
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Old 13-01-2015, 20:43
Colin_London
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Sadly I've just seen the footnote in that original article that defines the meaning of a 'lifetime service':

'1. Lifetime meaning as long as the V-Traffic RDS-TMC service is available in the country.'

Which says it all really - never believe the marketing hype!

At least the Nav system also seems to work off a mobile internet connection so I have an alternative bearer (even if that costs money to use).
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Old 14-01-2015, 07:40
N.Dean
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... So as that's only available on Global FM stations (not Classic FM which is INRIX) ...
It's at this point that I get confused. Classic FM is a Global station, isn't it ?
( http://www.thisisglobal.com/radio/ )
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Old 14-01-2015, 10:14
hanssolo
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As the Inrix TMS system is on Classic FM, the Traffic master TMS system is on regional stations ie perhaps Heart?
As the radio DSO has no date might not be until least 2020 until Classic FM and regional stations like Heart go digital, even after this the small commercial stations will stay on FM and can network a RDS TMC data system so TMC will have a long life.
Even if TMC does not provide the better capacity it's TPEG replacement on DAB or mobile phones will provide.

As car radio and sat nav sets slowly get updated TPEG should become the default traffic data system but is taking time.
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Old 14-01-2015, 13:34
Colin_London
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As the Inrix TMS system is on Classic FM, the Traffic master TMS system is on regional stations ie perhaps Heart?
As the radio DSO has no date might not be until least 2020 until Classic FM and regional stations like Heart go digital, even after this the small commercial stations will stay on FM and can network a RDS TMC data system so TMC will have a long life.
Even if TMC does not provide the better capacity it's TPEG replacement on DAB or mobile phones will provide.

As car radio and sat nav sets slowly get updated TPEG should become the default traffic data system but is taking time.
The DCMS report says that networking community stations will be uneconomic. It also makes some points about the costs of maintaining larger FM transmitters purely for the purpose of maintaining TMC.

It's the fact manufacturers are making short term decisions now that have long term consequences that is frustrating - cars tend to hang around in use for a couple of decades!
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Old 14-01-2015, 13:43
Gerry1
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It's the fact manufacturers are making short term decisions now that have long term consequences that is frustrating - cars tend to hang around in use for a couple of decades!
Given that so many new cars (even some very expensive ones) still have only analogue radios, and that almost all satnavs with traffic info use only the FM version, it's clear that any DSO can't happen before about 2030.
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Old 14-01-2015, 14:07
hanssolo
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Given that so many new cars (even some very expensive ones) still have only analogue radios, and that almost all satnavs with traffic info use only the FM version, it's clear that any DSO can't happen before about 2030.
The large radio groups, Radiocentre and set makers wanted a target of 2018 (when 2015 was not going to heppen) and might still be pushing for a date nearer 2022 rather than 2030?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...8-8859731.html
The DCMS report says that networking community stations will be uneconomic. It also makes some points about the costs of maintaining larger FM transmitters purely for the purpose of maintaining TMC.
Not the community stations but the small commercial stations like Breeze, Jackie etc that will stay on FM after a DSO and might get a power increase, they can network the TMC info to give good UK coverage, even though the audio on each station is different.
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Old 14-01-2015, 19:52
Colin_London
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The large radio groups, Radiocentre and set makers wanted a target of 2018 (when 2015 was not going to heppen) and might still be pushing for a date nearer 2022 rather than 2030?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...8-8859731.html

Not the community stations but the small commercial stations like Breeze, Jackie etc that will stay on FM after a DSO and might get a power increase, they can network the TMC info to give good UK coverage, even though the audio on each station is different.
Small commercial stations won't provide the necessary coverage - too many holes. Plus the cost of reaching agreement with each of those small stations, each of which will want to squeeze every penny out of it. The traffic info data companies want to deal with one or two suppliers max, and that appears to just be Global in the UK.
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Old 14-01-2015, 20:05
Colin_London
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Given that so many new cars (even some very expensive ones) still have only analogue radios, and that almost all satnavs with traffic info use only the FM version, it's clear that any DSO can't happen before about 2030.
The majority of cars now have DAB as standard. The changeover in Germany has seen to that. It's only the cheapest vehicles (e.g. Ka, Vauxhall Corsa, bottom drawer Fiestas) where it isn't and most of them have it as an option.
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Old 14-01-2015, 21:41
Gerry1
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The majority of cars now have DAB as standard. The changeover in Germany has seen to that.
Absolutely not !

Fewer than 10% of cars on the road have DAB, and that's the only figure that counts.

All new cars were supposed to have DAB by the end of 2013, but that was just another target that was missed by a mile. IIRC the most recent figure was 58%, so that means that more than a third of new cars are still analogue only.

It's only the cheapest vehicles (e.g. Ka, Vauxhall Corsa, bottom drawer Fiestas) where it isn't and most of them have it as an option.
Absolutely not !

Buy a £60,000 Tesla and you get only FM and MW. Not even Test Match Special ! Yes, DAB is an option. For a mere £2,000 more.

On many others (Kia, Mazda etc) , it's not even an option.

Given a lifetime of around 15 years, there will still be analogue-only cars around in 2030. Of course, many vested interests will be still pushing for a 201X switch off, just as they did for 2015, but it would be political suicide for any party that agreed (and bankruptcy for the commercial stations that were switched off).

Losing RDS traffic updates from satnavs and R2/R4/R5L (plus the commercial stations) from millions of domestic and car radios might not cause riots in Trafalgar Square, but it would still be a seismic event that no government would countenance.
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Old 15-01-2015, 09:20
Colin_London
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I of course meant new cars - and by quantity. As has been pointed out before Teslas don't really have a significant market share and if you can afford one you can affird £1k for the DAB option!

Getting back on topic certainly if a car has built in Nav then it's likely to have a DAB radio, hence the bizarre situation where the Nav unit uses RDS-TMC.
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Old 15-01-2015, 09:56
hanssolo
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I of course meant new cars - and by quantity. As has been pointed out before Teslas don't really have a significant market share and if you can afford one you can affird £1k for the DAB option!

Getting back on topic certainly if a car has built in Nav then it's likely to have a DAB radio, hence the bizarre situation where the Nav unit uses RDS-TMC.
Except some Toyotas, and also some BMWs which use TPEG but for some reason by 3G rather than the supplied standard DAB?
http://servicingstopbmw.co.uk/bmw-fe...mation-system/
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Old 09-12-2016, 12:36
hanssolo
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The TMC data channel is to be readvertised. Inrix still keep the DAB TPEG channel and expected to won the new TMC licence
http://www.a516digital.com/2016/12/o...advertise.html
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