[Everything Goes]

CEO of Vodafone UK, Jeroen Hoencamp, has moved to defend the performance of their 4G (LTE) Mobile Broadband network by saying that Internet “speed only gets you so far” and “the reality is that you don’t currently need anything beyond 20Mbps [Megabits per second] on a mobile device“.

Clearly network laggard Vodafone thinks EE are pissing in the wind with this daft high speed LTE malarkey that no one needs or wants. Which explains a lot about the sorry sate of Vodafone's data network.

He also said "Many customers don’t know what 4G is. Many customers don’t care what 4G is. All customers want is consistency, so that wherever they go they have strong signal.”

Yes Vodafone thinks we are all stupid and ignorant I guess

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...ps-mobile.html

[jabbamk1]

I was going to post this but decided against it because there is just so much to pick at.

One of things he said is that Vodafone's network is unique because they use low frequency spectrum to allow for better indoor coverage and a wider coverage footprint.

Clearly he's forgotten that O2, EE and Three too have 800MHz.

Also he seems to have forgotten that they have 2600 as well and can supply fast speeds if needed.

[Zee_Bukhari]

so I guess their 4G network is going in the same way as their 3G network. There's no hope for them.

[enapace]

I honestly have to agree with this I’ve often thought that 4G was more an enabler of services than anything else. Allowing the average download speeds to increase & decrease in latency allowing people to use there smartphones/tablets easier on the go. While some want high speeds I personally am fine with an average 8-14Mbps if we eventually get that nationally that to me will be massive progress compared to now. Anything above that is just an extra bonus to me and many mobile phone users.

In fairness a lot of people don't know what 4G is or even care to find out. A large segment of mobile customers do just want a strong signal and a good smartphone experience and there is absolutely no reason why a 98% indoor 800MHz 4G network which O2 and Vodafone are building shouldn't deliver that when it is finished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabbamk1

I was going to post this but decided against it because there is just so much to pick at.

One of things he said is that Vodafone's network is unique because they use low frequency spectrum to allow for better indoor coverage and a wider coverage footprint.

Clearly he's forgotten that O2, EE and Three too have 800MHz.

Also he seems to have forgotten that they have 2600 as well and can supply fast speeds if needed.

Agreed he does make some bad points but on the whole I do think he does have a decent overall idea. Most won't need more than 20Mbps on there devices.

With how Three are going they with there plans for national 800MHz they O2 & Vodafone should have pretty similar coverage indoors. It will be interesting see how EE compares to Three/Vodafone/O2 indoors.

[moox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enapace

I honestly have to agree with this I’ve often thought that 4G was more an enabler of services than anything else. Allowing the average download speeds to increase & decrease in latency allowing people to use there smartphones/tablets easier on the go. While some want high speeds I personally am fine with an average 8-14Mbps if we eventually get that nationally that to me will be massive progress compared to now. Anything above that is just an extra bonus to me and many mobile phone users.

In fairness a lot of people don't know what 4G is or even care to find out. A large segment of mobile customers do just want a strong signal and a good smartphone experience and there is absolutely no reason why a 98% indoor 800MHz 4G network which O2 and Vodafone are building shouldn't deliver that when it is finished.

But remember though, that higher speeds means more capacity if the network becomes increasingly loaded up with users. You might get 8-14Mbps now, but if it became a lot busier that'd drop to something slow and rubbish. But losing 50Mbps from an average of 100Mbps is not a problem

VF's remarks sounds like typical boilerplate from a company that is trying to hide its shocking lack of investment in its network. And totally shortsighted and doesn't account for future applications or usage.

I wonder how much of VF's network actually delivers 20Mbps? There is still quite a lot on 2G or "fake 3G". I anticipate getting Vodafone 4G here in about 2030, based on their previous performance, and they'll still have the cell site connected through a 56k modem

[Quackers]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everything Goes

He also said "Many customers don’t know what 4G is. Many customers don’t care what 4G is. All customers want is consistency, so that wherever they go they have strong signal.”

Yes Vodafone thinks we are all stupid and ignorant I guess

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...ps-mobile.html

Yes he is correct, all i do want is a strong signal which is why i left Vodafone and went back to EE (left when was Orange).

Vodafone is just a mess now and its down to nothing more than bad management higher up.

[enapace]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

But remember though, that higher speeds means more capacity if the network becomes increasingly loaded up with users. You might get 8-14Mbps now, but if it became a lot busier that'd drop to something slow and rubbish. But losing 50Mbps from an average of 100Mbps is not a problem

VF's remarks sounds like typical boilerplate from a company that is trying to hide its shocking lack of investment in its network. And totally shortsighted and doesn't account for future applications or usage.

I wonder how much of VF's network actually delivers 20Mbps? There is still quite a lot on 2G or "fake 3G". I anticipate getting Vodafone 4G here in about 2030, based on their previous performance, and they'll still have the cell site connected through a 56k modem

In fairness they are definitely putting that investment in now but agreed they should certainly of put more investment in over the years as it was kind of left to fall apart in some places. True higher speeds do grant that capacity but it's not like Vodafone hasn't considered that as they did buy 2x20MHz of 2600MHz which should certainly help with capacity in Urban areas in the future. The network that hasn't thought about capacity is definitely O2 and possibly Three.

It's going to take a while to build out Vodafone's network due to the fact they want to use there own Fibre network for a lot of it but that certainly helps them with further capacity issues as well.

[sethpet]

He is spot on though.

Apart from about 0.1% of consumers, hardly anyone will need half of the 20mb hes quoted
Id rather 3-5mb everywhere i go than see networks race to the fastest speeds possible on one cell in central london, just so they can make some pointless claim about being fastest.

Now he just has to deliver on providing the national data network he promises

[jabbamk1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethpet

He is spot on though.

Apart from about 0.1% of consumers, hardly anyone will need half of the 20mb hes quoted
Id rather 3-5mb everywhere i go than see networks race to the fastest speeds possible on one cell in central london, just so they can make some pointless claim about being fastest.

Spot on until you see this....

http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/vodafone...vanced-launch/


Hence why I said there is too much to pick at in that PR statement. Too much confusion over what they're actually trying to say.

I get and agree with the overall point. Just they could have said it much better.

[d123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everything Goes

CEO of Vodafone UK, Jeroen Hoencamp, has moved to defend the performance of their 4G (LTE) Mobile Broadband network by saying that Internet “speed only gets you so far” and “the reality is that you don’t currently need anything beyond 20Mbps [Megabits per second] on a mobile device“.

Clearly network laggard Vodafone thinks EE are pissing in the wind with this daft high speed LTE malarkey that no one needs or wants. Which explains a lot about the sorry sate of Vodafone's data network.

He also said "Many customers don’t know what 4G is. Many customers don’t care what 4G is. All customers want is consistency, so that wherever they go they have strong signal.”

Yes Vodafone thinks we are all stupid and ignorant I guess

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...ps-mobile.html

Christ, this is Vodafone being discussed.

This seems to have been their attitude since the day 3G launched:

"Many Vodafone customers don’t know what 3G is. Many Vodafone customers don’t care what 3G is. All customers want is consistency, so that wherever they go they have strong 2G signal.”

Just about sums them up.

[enapace]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethpet

He is spot on though.

Apart from about 0.1% of consumers, hardly anyone will need half of the 20mb hes quoted
Id rather 3-5mb everywhere i go than see networks race to the fastest speeds possible on one cell in central london, just so they can make some pointless claim about being fastest.

Now he just has to deliver on providing the national data network he promises

Nice to see someone else understands what I was trying to say. EE and Three certainly have the better national data networks at moment but certainly O2 and Vodafone after there main 4G rollouts are complete will have that as well.

[clewsy]

He is right as most of us would just like 3g in near all the places we have 2g. Maybe this is why they are investing in all these new 3g shared sites with o2.

[jabbamk1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clewsy

He is right as most of us would just like 3g in near all the places we have 2g. Maybe this is why they are investing in all these new 3g shared sites with o2.

But at the end of the day.....

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/r...psn6vguuw3.gif

[enapace]

I think all four networks are going to have solid data networks once rollouts are complete. Yes as Jabba says MBNL certainly are the better choice at the moment for data networks. But Cornerstone is starting to catch up to Vodafone 4G is very good for instance in Manchester from what I've seen. In rural areas Vodafone 2G and 3G is still very poor but it won't always be that way i expect.

[jabbamk1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by enapace

Yes as Jabba says MBNL certainly are the better choice at the moment for data networks.

Hahahahaha. Now we know pictures are worth 1000 words

[The Lord Lucan]

Strong signal.. Says the man at the helm of the network with the poorest 3G (in every way!), most unreliable and after Three, slowest 4G coverage roll out.

Can't even say with them using C&W that the latency is any better than EE.. As is just ain't most of the time. Vodafone clearly need to sake this loon and start spending the cashZ

[andyukguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethpet

He is spot on though.

Apart from about 0.1% of consumers, hardly anyone will need half of the 20mb hes quoted
Id rather 3-5mb everywhere i go than see networks race to the fastest speeds possible on one cell in central london, just so they can make some pointless claim about being fastest.

Now he just has to deliver on providing the national data network he promises

Fully agree with this! Also what enapace wrote. What I want from my provider is coverage everywhere and for this coverage to provide a low latency, consistent data connection. How far above 2-3Mbps that connection goes I couldn't give a hoot! I was someone badgering Vodafone to roll out Edge nationwide back in the day not that that proved a success. Hopefully they'll get 4G right. Who cares about a historically poor 3G network if they have a reliable nationwide 800mhz 4G network (with 2600mhz for busy cities). I still feel of all the providers Vodafone have the best mix of spectrum (2G, 3G and 4G) and cash to achieve what I'm looking for from a network. Will they do it? Who knows!

[moox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyukguy

Fully agree with this! Also what enapace wrote. What I want from my provider is coverage everywhere and for this coverage to provide a low latency, consistent data connection. How far above 2-3Mbps that connection goes I couldn't give a hoot!

2-3Mbps? Is this 2006?

Vodafone can't even provide any of those wishes for a lot of people. I can now get Vodafone 3G (years after everyone else), but it is basically GPRS-level throughput and latency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyukguy

I was someone badgering Vodafone to roll out Edge nationwide back in the day not that that proved a success.

Why would you want to do that, when 3G is faster and capable of more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyukguy

Hopefully they'll get 4G right. Who cares about a historically poor 3G network if they have a reliable nationwide 800mhz 4G network (with 2600mhz for busy cities). I still feel of all the providers Vodafone have the best mix of spectrum (2G, 3G and 4G) and cash to achieve what I'm looking for from a network. Will they do it? Who knows!

Because Vodafone has shown that it doesn't care too much about moving past 2G right now - their track record speaks volumes. Just have to wait and see.

In the meantime I'll stick to 3 and EE - both have excellent 3G coverage everywhere I go, and undoubtedly EE will be getting 4G to me first (Vodafone's nearest 4G area being well over 100 miles away compared to 3's 40 and EE's 5-10)

[Thine Wonk]

It's what I've been saying for ages.

[andyukguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

2-3Mbps? Is this 2006?

Vodafone can't even provide any of those wishes for a lot of people. I can now get Vodafone 3G (years after everyone else), but it is basically GPRS-level throughput and latency.

I think the key part is the low latency, that makes the biggest difference to perceived browsing speed ("snappiness") vs super high throughput speeds. It's obviously a balance, but I stand by what I said. For my needs a low latency, 2-3Mbps, nationwide connection would be sufficient. The good news for me is Vodafone are aiming for something closer to 20Mbps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

Why would you want to do that, when 3G is faster and capable of more?

This was back in the day as I said above, a nationwide Edge network that worked was quite a juicy prospect once upon a time!

Quote:

Originally Posted by moox

Because Vodafone has shown that it doesn't care too much about moving past 2G right now - their track record speaks volumes. Just have to wait and see.

In the meantime I'll stick to 3 and EE - both have excellent 3G coverage everywhere I go, and undoubtedly EE will be getting 4G to me first (Vodafone's nearest 4G area being well over 100 miles away compared to 3's 40 and EE's 5-10)

I'm with EE at the moment, as they are the closest to matching my criteria currently. However I do feel Vodafone have the best chance of all providers, at least on paper, to achieve my ideal network. Where EE falls down is indoor coverage and unless/until they roll out 800Mhz nationwide I can't see how that'll ever get solved.

[The Lord Lucan]

Auto Correct sucks btw..

[de525ma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyukguy

I'm with EE at the moment, as they are the closest to matching my criteria currently. However I do feel Vodafone have the best chance of all providers, at least on paper, to achieve my ideal network. Where EE falls down is indoor coverage and unless/until they roll out 800Mhz nationwide I can't see how that'll ever get solved.

Meh. 1800MHz performs pretty well indoors. It always did for me when I was on Orange 2G anyway.

1800MHz is a nice compromise frequency I think.

Everything will improve once 2G and 3G are switched off (maybe 5-10 years from now?). More power for 4G services and none of the headache of switching between packed based and circuit switched calls for voice.

[jchamier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by de525ma

Meh. 1800MHz performs pretty well indoors. It always did for me when I was on Orange 2G anyway. 1800MHz is a nice compromise frequency I think.

Agreed, Orange 2G and T-Mobile 2G both on 1800 often out performed the legacy networks on 900mhz, purely due to more cell sites in closer locations.

Quote:

Everything will improve once 2G and 3G are switched off (maybe 5-10 years from now?). More power for 4G services and none of the headache of switching between packed based and circuit switched calls for voice.

I suspect 4G coverage is only on a handful of 1800mhz sites compared to 2G at the moment for EE (and Three is very thin) - this will be affecting indoor coverage. I also wonder if the power output of 4G is artificially low so that the phone can do CSFB back to 3G or 2G for voice calls.

Once VoLTE launches and compatible handsets are in the majority, then the power output can be increased I would have thought - but not for a few years.

More likely to see more and more of the cell sites broadcasting 4G, so increasing "density" in an urban area. T-Mobile USA are talking in these terms as to their plans, so I'm making assumptions for EE

[d123]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamier

I also wonder if the power output of 4G is artificially low so that the phone can do CSFB back to 3G or 2G for voice calls.

Except EE don't really have that issue. 4G at 1800MHz can fall back to 2G 1800MHz for voice calls.

[Aye Up]

Whilst I would agree he CEO's press release wasn't the most eloquent way to get his point across, it is to some degree correct. I think a lot of people on this forum look to 4G as being some kind of saviour, it will revolutionise the way consumers use their smartphones. Broadly speaking most customers only care about being able to take photos upload them to their choice of social network, and being able to message friends and family using whatever app they like.

I have never come across a situation where a non "tech savvy" phone user does a speedtest or cares about how fast it should be. 4G is an enabler nothing more, the market as it now stands is moving towards fixed but generous usage allowances. This will be the way UK networks monetise 4G, they will in short offer more for the same price (won't drive down prices).

I think we can all agree Vodafone under invested in its network for the last 10 years or so, they have more or less admitted this publicly. They have more or less committed to spending near £2Bn on upgrading their network for the future (4G and above). I think as another user Uno said in another thread, Vodafone are recognising that speeds have fallen somewhat and will be alleviating those issues promptly.

Being honest I think some people are far to stubborn and stuck in the past, yes Vodafone was a load of shit for many years. But for me since first opening my account with them 4 years ago, they have been good. I was on Orange previously and I could get no throughput in Manchester City Centre, moving to Vodafone allowed me to use the internet. Send a WhatsApp nessage or post a status on facebook. Neither could be performed on Orange at the time especially during midweek when half a million plus would descend on the city for work. The merging of the networks and latterly network share was a boon for Orange, as that was also a company that had rather poorly invested in 3G, not something you notice now.

Oranges network was shit for many years, fair enough like Vodafone 2G coverage was excellent. 3G had been under invested for a number of years. The only reason the merged company has such a good network now is down to MBNL and formerly T-Mobile having the foresight to recognise the technology would be more in demand in the future.

But we can talk all day till the cows come home about how crap a network has been or currently are as they don't have 2G backup, not enough 3G or poor 4G speeds. I think everyone is focussing too much on the technology at hand, rather than assessing the overall direction and aims. In the future coverage will improve massively for those on Vodafone and even EE, they both have a very good selection of spectrum allowing them to achieve credible results. For me Vodafone has improved over the last 18 months, 4G is expanding widely and common sense apporach is used to building out. Relative to Three who seem to take a postcode lottery to 4G.

I have been using the free EE 4G sim for the last month or so, the speeds I have been seeing have been more or less the same as Vodafone. Admittedly EE does have the largest number of 4G customers/users, its also double speeds where I live and work. Again my experience was broadly similar for 3G, maybe a touch better on Vodafone due to 3G900. I am impressed with EE so far, one thing I have come to realise, is having a 2G backup is a must. I went out into the sticks for a few days over Christmas and both networks offered acceptable 2G coverage. Suffice to say I didn't get anything on Three (shock horror).

Bluntly put I think people need to get over themselves in relating to the legacy problems of Vodafone and focus more on what will happen in the future. Building out 4G like Rome, won't done overnight. However in those areas where Vodafone has put in place new infratructure you will generally find the service much improved and more importantly reliable, something that can't be said of another network.