I don't think she lacks empathy, she shows it for Nadia regularly in the diary room. She showed it for Alicia, Ken, Alexander, Michelle, Chloe and even Jeremy. You may argue that some of it was misplaced but empathy is there.
Katie Hopkins lacks empathy
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Originally Posted by uberman:
“I don't believe a word of it, she'll come out with any old crap.”
“I don't believe a word of it, she'll come out with any old crap.”
I'd suggest you start reading up on the science of the brain. The brain controls every behaviour we know and the reasons there are so many different personality types is because eveyone is wired differently. I don't like Katie H at all. The reason for that is that my brain is wired in a way that I can often agree, and often conflict with her.
None of it is 'made up'. You are either in a fortunate enough position that you experience life relatively smoothly or you are also in the same bracket as Katie who lacks the empathy to realise there are people with different brains than her own.
Her epilepsy is not made up. It is real. Hence why she has fits most nights when she sleeps. In the same way, her way of reacting to people's emotions is not made up, it is real.
Originally Posted by ah But:
“I don't think she lacks empathy, she shows it for Nadia regularly in the diary room. She showed it for Alicia, Ken, Alexander, Michelle, Chloe and even Jeremy. You may argue that some of it was misplaced but empathy is there.”
“I don't think she lacks empathy, she shows it for Nadia regularly in the diary room. She showed it for Alicia, Ken, Alexander, Michelle, Chloe and even Jeremy. You may argue that some of it was misplaced but empathy is there.”
That's not her feeling empathy, that's her showing respect. She respects these people. But the visceral feeling of empathy, is not the same.
I'm surprised the other housemates haven't pulled her up on those faces she keeps pulling.
If I was talking to someone I'd find it pretty rude if they kept making those kinds of faces.
If I was talking to someone I'd find it pretty rude if they kept making those kinds of faces.
Originally Posted by Herts47:
“She wasn't trying to cheer Keith up at all. She was mocking him. Watch her face as he walks away. Pure hate. Her fave turns from that stupid head down eyes wide look to stating daggers at him. That is not normal behaviour.”
“She wasn't trying to cheer Keith up at all. She was mocking him. Watch her face as he walks away. Pure hate. Her fave turns from that stupid head down eyes wide look to stating daggers at him. That is not normal behaviour.”
It was the same stupid exaggerated expression she gave Alexander (The Big Guy) on the first night. She does it because she feels that it's her role to be a contrarian at any emotional point. It's no more authentic than fake over the top emotion, fake over the top cynicism.
For me it's not that she has no empathy that's the problem, it's that she has no sense of humour or genuine authenticity. She's replaced it with an obvious caricature complete with stock hacky phrases and matching facial expressions.
She wants so desperately to be the panto villain and Perez has made her somewhat redundant in that respect but she tries to hamfist her way into that role with lame mockeries of Alicia and Keith and pointless, nonsensical grillings of Patsy, who actually gave her the 'straight' (and obvious) answer twice very clearly.
A total abortion of a personality. A walking bumper sticker. Stock convictions with supporting arguments just as vague and fluffy as any stoned Marxist hippy student. "I like to think in black and white... You can have the vanilla, I exist in the spectrum of colours..", what??!!? I smell bullshit lady.
People will always judge that which they don't understand. It's hard to understand someone who behaves so differently to what you'd expect. These people are often aggressors, harmful, as I think Katie is, but she's no criminal either, so as we are more 'whole' than her, we should try to be more understanding, rather than judging. In my opinion. Which people will ignore anyway.
After all, she has a 'lovely' husband who she sees as so different to her. That's the nature of life. They'll make more balanced children.
After all, she has a 'lovely' husband who she sees as so different to her. That's the nature of life. They'll make more balanced children.
Originally Posted by missfrankiecat:
“I must lack empathy too then because I was surprised by his tears. I think they were genuine because I haven't seen any evidence that he is fake but I also hadn't seen any particular warmth in his relationship with Alicia so the tears came from left field. Surely being surprised by an unexpected display of emotion doesn't mean one lacks empathy?”
“I must lack empathy too then because I was surprised by his tears. I think they were genuine because I haven't seen any evidence that he is fake but I also hadn't seen any particular warmth in his relationship with Alicia so the tears came from left field. Surely being surprised by an unexpected display of emotion doesn't mean one lacks empathy?”
True. And I was also surprised by his tears, but in that situation it's normal to conquer your incredulity in an instant, not drill them with a disdainful look. It smacks of refusal to believe that Cheggers was genuinely upset.
My instinct is that he's feeling emotional anyway (missing his wife) and Alicia leaving tipped him over the edge. I felt for him whatever the cause. I was taken aback, yes, but didn't doubt his sincerity for a moment.
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“Well she admitted herself she has epilepsy and a part of her brain is missing. The frontal lobe I think, where emotions are regulated etc.
I think as objectionable/ridiculous as her behaviour can be, I have enough understanding to afford her the empathy she is physically incabable of affording to others sometimes.
Many people are walking around with brains that produce behaviour unnacceptable to the 'norm'. It creates a cognitive dissonance where we know they can't help it, but we also can't help react to it too.”
“Well she admitted herself she has epilepsy and a part of her brain is missing. The frontal lobe I think, where emotions are regulated etc.
I think as objectionable/ridiculous as her behaviour can be, I have enough understanding to afford her the empathy she is physically incabable of affording to others sometimes.
Many people are walking around with brains that produce behaviour unnacceptable to the 'norm'. It creates a cognitive dissonance where we know they can't help it, but we also can't help react to it too.”
Fair point.
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“Well she admitted herself she has epilepsy and a part of her brain is missing. The frontal lobe I think, where emotions are regulated etc.
I think as objectionable/ridiculous as her behaviour can be, I have enough understanding to afford her the empathy she is physically incabable of affording to others sometimes.
Many people are walking around with brains that produce behaviour unnacceptable to the 'norm'. It creates a cognitive dissonance where we know they can't help it, but we also can't help react to it too.”
“Well she admitted herself she has epilepsy and a part of her brain is missing. The frontal lobe I think, where emotions are regulated etc.
I think as objectionable/ridiculous as her behaviour can be, I have enough understanding to afford her the empathy she is physically incabable of affording to others sometimes.
Many people are walking around with brains that produce behaviour unnacceptable to the 'norm'. It creates a cognitive dissonance where we know they can't help it, but we also can't help react to it too.”
That's all well and good but you could probably use that same line of argument to sympathise with a serial killer. You would still generally label them a w ank er.
My confusion is why she seems to get so much glee out of it. The other day when she was arguing about conviction politicians and Thatcher she was so bubbly when mentioning the things Thatcher did and almost squealed "the miners". Now whatever your politics were or are, the miners strikes weren't a gleeful experience. I doubt even Thatcher herself wet herself with joy over it. But Hopkins seems to revel in the thought of poverty stricken communities and their legacy.
It seems so unnecessarily nasty. Maybe her missing part of the brain removed empathy, but what part added sadistic pleasure?
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“That's not her feeling empathy, that's her showing respect. She respects these people. But the visceral feeling of empathy, is not the same.”
“That's not her feeling empathy, that's her showing respect. She respects these people. But the visceral feeling of empathy, is not the same.”
Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?
Originally Posted by Desy Boy:
“That's all well and good but you could probably use that same line of argument to sympathise with a serial killer. You would still generally label them a w ank er.
My confusion is why she seems to get so much glee out of it. The other day when she was arguing about conviction politicians and Thatcher she was so bubbly when mentioning the things Thatcher did and almost squealed "the miners". Now whatever your politics were or are, the miners strikes weren't a gleeful experience. I doubt even Thatcher herself wet herself with joy over it. But Hopkins seems to revel in the thought of poverty stricken communities and their legacy.
It seems so unnecessarily nasty. Maybe her missing part of the brain removed empathy, but what part added sadistic pleasure?”
“That's all well and good but you could probably use that same line of argument to sympathise with a serial killer. You would still generally label them a w ank er.
My confusion is why she seems to get so much glee out of it. The other day when she was arguing about conviction politicians and Thatcher she was so bubbly when mentioning the things Thatcher did and almost squealed "the miners". Now whatever your politics were or are, the miners strikes weren't a gleeful experience. I doubt even Thatcher herself wet herself with joy over it. But Hopkins seems to revel in the thought of poverty stricken communities and their legacy.
It seems so unnecessarily nasty. Maybe her missing part of the brain removed empathy, but what part added sadistic pleasure?”
Sympathise, no, but understand, certainly. It explains a lot actually.
Originally Posted by ah But:
“Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?”
“Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?”
That's not empathy, that's just supporting someone who has something in common with you.
Empathy is taking someone else who has a totally different situation to you and trying to understand them.
She understood Alexander because she too hates Perez and she understood Ken because she too likes to express old fashioned right wing sentiments that commonly offend people.
That's not empathy, that's just agreeing.
Originally Posted by sycamore:
“Yes, the face she pulled was more than unfortunate but she did try to console him. And I think she was genuinely sorry herself that Alicia had gone, and not just because it meant Perez stayed.”
“Yes, the face she pulled was more than unfortunate but she did try to console him. And I think she was genuinely sorry herself that Alicia had gone, and not just because it meant Perez stayed.”
I think she was a bit guilty about Alicia as she was such a soft target. I was disappointed that she it took her so long to be friendly with her.
Originally Posted by ah But:
“Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?”
“Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?”
Those aren't really examples of 'showing empathy' though. They were complex actions with complex causes. Empathy is something immediate, felt internally. We can only guess whether she experiences empathy based on subtle visual cues (facial expressions and the like), not from overt, reasoned actions.
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“I'd suggest you start reading up on the science of the brain. The brain controls every behaviour we know and the reasons there are so many different personality types is because eveyone is wired differently. I don't like Katie H at all. The reason for that is that my brain is wired in a way that I can often agree, and often conflict with her.
None of it is 'made up'. You are either in a fortunate enough position that you experience life relatively smoothly or you are also in the same bracket as Katie who lacks the empathy to realise there are people with different brains than her own.
Her epilepsy is not made up. It is real. Hence why she has fits most nights when she sleeps. In the same way, her way of reacting to people's emotions is not made up, it is real.”
“I'd suggest you start reading up on the science of the brain. The brain controls every behaviour we know and the reasons there are so many different personality types is because eveyone is wired differently. I don't like Katie H at all. The reason for that is that my brain is wired in a way that I can often agree, and often conflict with her.
None of it is 'made up'. You are either in a fortunate enough position that you experience life relatively smoothly or you are also in the same bracket as Katie who lacks the empathy to realise there are people with different brains than her own.
Her epilepsy is not made up. It is real. Hence why she has fits most nights when she sleeps. In the same way, her way of reacting to people's emotions is not made up, it is real.”
I don't need to read up on 'the science of the brain'. You completely missed my point, which took some doing as it was quite simple. Didn't you take notice of the part I highlighted?
I do not believe that part of her brain is missing. Don't take it personally, it's Hopkins I don't believe.
If people aren't on the same emotional wavelength as her she can't accept or understand it. She scoffs at anyone that has a different opinion than her.
Originally Posted by ah But:
“Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?”
“Trying to stop Perez goading Alexander, Feeling for Ken when Nadia was ready to phone the police, lots of other examples of her showing empathy if you want to see it, I suppose when watching the show we quite often see only the bits we want to see? and we are all a little guilty of that?”
No I see all these actions too. She was very well justified to stick up for Alex and even for Ken (not that he was being goaded to say any of the things he said unlike Alex). I actually admire the way she treated Perez after how he treated Alex and she showed a force that was required that most people wouldn't show.
(alex using the F word was utterly stupid of him) btw but push hard enough, people's prejudice's will come out, it doesn't mean you should push them that far - his 'prejudice' could most likely be down to just sheer animal frustration, we are all capable of showing aggression by pushing away the 'other' not just Alex, even if we know that reasonably speaking, we shouldn't feel that way or act on it. Pushed to shove, people can do unspeakable things they wouldn't in their normal minds, think they would do.
Perez pushes people who would otherwise accept him and leave him alone or even befriend him. It's up to the individual how they react to him. Unfortunately in that house, they couldn't get away from him. Hence the Alex, Perez situation. And we should now question Perez as to why he was goading Alex and how he felt justified to act as he did.
Originally Posted by uberman:
“I don't need to read up on 'the science of the brain'. You completely missed my point, which took some doing as it was quite simple. Didn't you take notice of the part I highlighted?
I do not believe that part of her brain is missing. Don't take it personally, it's Hopkins I don't believe.”
“I don't need to read up on 'the science of the brain'. You completely missed my point, which took some doing as it was quite simple. Didn't you take notice of the part I highlighted?
I do not believe that part of her brain is missing. Don't take it personally, it's Hopkins I don't believe.”
Do you need proof from her doctor first? She has epilepsy. It's not some imaginary illness. I don't have it and even I can accept it exists.
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“Do you need proof from her doctor first? She has epilepsy. It's not some imaginary illness. I don't have it and even I can accept it exists.”
“Do you need proof from her doctor first? She has epilepsy. It's not some imaginary illness. I don't have it and even I can accept it exists.”
i'd just like to say i have friends with epilepsy and neither of them are socio-paths or pathologically nasty like KH,and a diagnosis of epilepsy certainly doesn't mean you "have a part of your brain missing".
Originally Posted by planets:
“i'd just like to say i have friends with epilepsy and neither of them are socio-paths or pathologically nasty like KH,and a diagnosis of epilepsy certainly doesn't mean you "have a part of your brain missing".”
“i'd just like to say i have friends with epilepsy and neither of them are socio-paths or pathologically nasty like KH,and a diagnosis of epilepsy certainly doesn't mean you "have a part of your brain missing".”
I appreciate that. I never said having epilepsy makes you like that. I was saying that she does have epilepsy and shows signs of sociopathy as well. I was simply demonstrating to the poster that being a d*ck that is objectionable to a lot of people, also has it's source in the fact people are wired differently, like people with epilepsy are.The point of what I was saying, is that people don't really have a choice in how their brain functions. We can only learn and try to exercise ways of balancing out the imbalances. And when that doesn't work, they end up teetering on the edge til they fall off.
To clarify, I'm not saying if you have epilepsy you are also sociopathic.
Having said that, having a relatively 'sociopathic' brain is not always bad. It's purely relative how you perceive it anyway. I'm talking from an objective point of view, but maybe I just shouldn't talk at all.
If I said that anywhere then I will take that back. I'm sorry if i said that. I don't think I did.
And before someone goes mad on me, I didn't mean people with epilepsy specifically behave like d*cks. I was talking specifically about people (such as Katie H) for example, who many people take issue with.
If I've said anything offensive, let me know.
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“I appreciate that. I never said having epilepsy makes you like that. I was saying that she does have epilepsy and shows signs of sociopathy as well. I was simply demonstrating to the poster that being a d*ck that is objectionable to a lot of people, also has it's source in the fact people are wired differently, like people with epilepsy are.The point of what I was saying, is that people don't really have a choice in how their brain functions. We can only learn and try to exercise ways of balancing out the imbalances. And when that doesn't work, they end up teetering on the edge til they fall off.
To clarify, I'm not saying if you have epilepsy you are also sociopathic.
If I said that anywhere then I will take that back. I'm sorry if i said that. I don't think I did.”
“I appreciate that. I never said having epilepsy makes you like that. I was saying that she does have epilepsy and shows signs of sociopathy as well. I was simply demonstrating to the poster that being a d*ck that is objectionable to a lot of people, also has it's source in the fact people are wired differently, like people with epilepsy are.The point of what I was saying, is that people don't really have a choice in how their brain functions. We can only learn and try to exercise ways of balancing out the imbalances. And when that doesn't work, they end up teetering on the edge til they fall off.
To clarify, I'm not saying if you have epilepsy you are also sociopathic.
If I said that anywhere then I will take that back. I'm sorry if i said that. I don't think I did.”
no i completely understand chit_chat, my point is and i think what the other poster was trying to say is, i consider KH to be an unreliable narrator so whilst i'm happy to believe she has epilepsy etc i don't believe everything she says like for example "i have a bit of my brain missing". I don't believe her epilepsy is the cause of her sociopathy, i believe that to be a deliberate decision. from various links i've read to interviews with teachers etc of KH who knew her before her fame it seems this was not a character trait. I believe she saw this way of courting controversy gained her attention on the Apprentice and so chose that path. I find her inauthentic.
Originally Posted by planets:
“i'd just like to say i have friends with epilepsy and neither of them are socio-paths or pathologically nasty like KH,and a diagnosis of epilepsy certainly doesn't mean you "have a part of your brain missing".”
“i'd just like to say i have friends with epilepsy and neither of them are socio-paths or pathologically nasty like KH,and a diagnosis of epilepsy certainly doesn't mean you "have a part of your brain missing".”
By the way, looking back, I can see how what I said sounded like what you said it did.
I'm aware of the complexities of the brain enough to firmly state that even with epilespy, someone doesn't always behave with lack of empathy.
I was trying to express the fact that epilepsy is down to the brain, and in the same way so is a lack of empathy,
Hope that clarifies it,
Originally Posted by Chit_Chat15:
“By the way, looking back, I can see how what I said sounded like what you said it did.
I'm aware of the complexities of the brain enough to firmly state that even with epilespy, someone doesn't always behave with lack of empathy.
I was trying to express the fact that epilepsy is down to the brain, and in the same way so is a lack of empathy,
Hope that clarifies it,”
“By the way, looking back, I can see how what I said sounded like what you said it did.
I'm aware of the complexities of the brain enough to firmly state that even with epilespy, someone doesn't always behave with lack of empathy.
I was trying to express the fact that epilepsy is down to the brain, and in the same way so is a lack of empathy,
Hope that clarifies it,”
oh it's fine don't worry!!! i could see a misunderstanding happening while i was lurking which is why i barged in where i probably shouldn't
*looks for phone to call police* from reading the various threads i think quite a few people share the view of KH being an Unreliable Narrator even if they don't use that term.
Originally Posted by planets:
“no i completely understand chit_chat, my point is and i think what the other poster was trying to say is, i consider KH to be an unreliable narrator so whilst i'm happy to believe she has epilepsy etc i don't believe everything she says like for example "i have a bit of my brain missing". I don't believe her epilepsy is the cause of her sociopathy, i believe that to be a deliberate decision. from various links i've read to interviews with teachers etc of KH who knew her before her fame it seems this was not a character trait. I believe she saw this way of courting controversy gained her attention on the Apprentice and so chose that path. I find her inauthentic.”
“no i completely understand chit_chat, my point is and i think what the other poster was trying to say is, i consider KH to be an unreliable narrator so whilst i'm happy to believe she has epilepsy etc i don't believe everything she says like for example "i have a bit of my brain missing". I don't believe her epilepsy is the cause of her sociopathy, i believe that to be a deliberate decision. from various links i've read to interviews with teachers etc of KH who knew her before her fame it seems this was not a character trait. I believe she saw this way of courting controversy gained her attention on the Apprentice and so chose that path. I find her inauthentic.”
You're implying her epilepsy is authentic, but her other traits are deliberate/her choice.
You're implying she doesn't have a choice in her epilepsy, but she does in other things, like how she treats people? I don't think I agree.
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