[Matilda.cs]

Hi all,

I've started collecting vinyl but I currenlty don't have a turntable.
I planned to pick up a few of my favourite records as and when, and pick up a player later.

Anyway, later is coming, and I need a player.

I went to richer sounds in norwich today and spoke to someone who was pretty helpful, but I wanted to throw his advice out there, in the hope that someone was in a similar place to me recently, and can give me some good advice.

The following set up is slightly above budget, but i would get it if it was generally considered the best option....

Record player - ProJect Debut Carbon £325
Cambridge sr10 amp £220 (built in pre amp)
Cambridge audio sx60 £150

So in theory, if I were willing I drop £700 on a complete record plYer system....What would you guys recommend?

I need a complete system, and I'm hoping for audiophile quality...

Thanks in advance,

Matilda

[Winston_1]

Seems an awful lot of money to play odd records you pick up as and when, presumably second hand.

[Chris Frost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matilda.cs

Record player - ProJect Debut Carbon £325
Cambridge sr10 amp £220 (built in pre amp)
Cambridge audio sx60 £150

So in theory, if I were willing I drop £700 on a complete record plYer system....What would you guys recommend?

I need a complete system, and I'm hoping for audiophile quality...

Hi Matilda,

ProJect Debut Carbon £325 - good choice.

Cambridge sr10 - this is a stereo receiver. That means it has a radio tuner built in. Now, unless you specifically need a radio tuner, and you're then going to spend some more money to put a decent FM aerial on the roof, then you're buying a feature that you won't use, and the money saved could be put to better use elsewhere. Also, you don't need this specific amp/receiver just to get a phono pre-amp input. There's plenty of other amps at similar money that I'd look at before the SR10.

Onkyo 9030 or Cambridge Topaz AM10 - both £169

Yamaha AS201 - £149 ~ £180

Marantz PM5005 £199


Cambridge audio sx60 speakers - Cambridge Audio is RicherSounds in-house brand. There's some very good product in the range, but if you find yourself being steered towards the brand then bear in mind that it's probably the product range that Richers make most margin out of. That's okay for the sales guys, but ask yourself if the sales guy is thinking of what's best for you. Judge with your ears.

Personally I think you can do better in the speaker department. Cambridge Audio has been mostly known for amps and CD players. Speakers were never it's forte.

I'd be tempted to rejig the budget a bit.....

Replace the Project Debut Carbon with the Project Essential II @ £210 (frees up £125)

Try the Onkyo 9030 versus the Marantz PM5005 (frees up £20-£50)

Replace the CA SX60 speakers. Try Wharfedale Diamond 220 £199 versus Dali Zensor 1 £220 (uses £40~£60 of the freed-up budget.

The turntable is still very good, but now it better matches the rest of the system. The Onkyo and Marantz amps are great audiophile products, and all the money goes in to sound features that you'll get the most benefit from. The speakers are more accomplished and have a sweetness and detail that the SX60s would struggle to match.

Potentially this now leaves something like £80~£135 for accessories. Your first purchase should be something to put the turntable upon. Yes, it really does make a difference. Pop on to Ikea and buy a LACK table. They were about £7 last time I looked. (£70~£125 left)

You need some speaker stands to get the best from your audiophile speakers. Personally, rather than spending a tonne of cash on new I'd look at the local classifieds or Ebay. You'll pick up something very decent for between £10 and £20 a pair, especially if you look at the "collection only" sales on your local area. (£50~£115 left)

You'll need speaker cable. Something in pure copper, and a thick copper cross section too. 1.5mm2 (square millimetre) is what you're looking for. If Richers want to throw something in then great, but make sure it's that thickness or more. If not then the web is your friend. Either Van Damme Blue 1.5mm or Fisual S-Flex 1.5mm are both the best value choices. They're £1.50 per metre. Even if you need 5m per side you'll only spend £15. (£35~£80 left)

Finally, a phono cable from the turntable to the amp. Richers will suggest their Cambridge Audio cables, I'm sure. I'd go for Ebay again though. Have a look for Chord Crimson. A 1m pair should do just fine. These would be around £50 for a set which probably seems outrageous, which is why we're looking at used. Budget around £20 or so, which is probably what RS would want to charge you for their CA version of some £5 interconnects.

If there's money left over then one accessory that every vinyl owner should have is a carbon fibre record brush. A decent one will cost around £25 but it's worth every penny, for it will dig out the dust from a record surface and make your vinyl as noise free as it can be.

[soulboy77]

I was going to also suggest the Marantz PM5005 amp and Wharfedale Diamond 220 speakers as well but I noticed Richer Sounds are advertising the Marantz PM6005 amp & Q Acoustics 2020i speakers at £419 together. That is a great deal for two award winning separates. Add the excellent Project Essential II turntable £209 and you would have a very decent set-up for £628, just add cables.

[fmradiotuner1]

I really like my rotel ra-01 and Mission 700 2 way speaker system.
Also use a PSW2010 10 inch sub with it for more bass.
Though these parts can only really be bought on ebay or gumtree now but won't cost to much to buy.
Turn table could be as above or REGA as many seem to use this make on youtube to play records.

[niall campbell]

my neighbour has a Linn one.

Amazing quality of sound

[unique]

this might sound snobbish, but you are looking at the budget end of hifi. £700 might sound like a lot of money, especially compared to having the cheapo crappy turntables that the likes of lidl and aldi might advertise or the speaker docks some folk use, but that stuff isn't really what anyone into hifi would call hifi

the items you are looking at are basically the budget starting prices for hifi. sure you can get some items cheaper, but when you start to look into things you will find out that for something of audiophile quality you are talking serious amounts of cash. that's not to say that for the budget you are talking you can't get something that sounds decent, it's just saying you are at a starter level of hifi

personally i'd never suggest anyone starts off spending that amount of money on a vinly setup in this day and age unless they had plenty of money to spend, and i doubt that's the case. it sounds like you don't have a hifi setup at all, based on the amp and speakers you mention. amp and speakers are key components as all your audio is ultimately going to come out the speakers, and as speaker technology doesn't change much over the years if you get good speakers they can last decades without you needing to upgrade or if you do upgrade you can use them in another system, or sell them etc. and perhaps that's something work looking into as many people do ditch perfectly good hifi gear due to upgraditis such as moving to surround setups, where again you can sometimes find great amps for next to nothing or even free on freecycle. with the popularity of vinly now i doubt you will get too lucky there in the second hand market, but thats the area i'd raise the most caution about, as a well balanced amp and speaker setup paired with a decent cd player is probably going to sound better than a turntable setup at the price point you are looking at. whatever budget you set for the source, unless into higher figures you are probably going to get a much better sound spending your turntable budget on a cd player. you could look at rejigging your budget to spend more on the speakers and amp as most cd players are going to sound fine, and that's where you may also get lucky in the second hand market. and perhaps you could look at buying your turntable and strike it lucky and find a cheap bargain second hand cd player online or on freecycle, and see for yourself that the cd player is probably going to give you a better sound. but of course it won't play your records

the other thing that's very important with turntables is the setup. it's very different to a cd player or dvd player that just requires to be opened, unpacked and plugged in. the tone arm needs to be calibrated properly as you can cause permanent damage to your records if it's set badly. so i'd suggest looking at some other hifi stores and get some tips before you do purchase. richer sounds isn't a bad shop, but it's basically there to shift boxes, whereas the specialist stores will usually be able to give a lot more knowledge and let you test systems. you might also want to buy a hifi mag and have a read, and look at the deals and prices listed

[niall campbell]

I just wonder if the OP is better to go down the 2nd hand route and build his way up ?

Biwiring etc of speakers of any interest

[Chris Frost]

Being an audiophile has very little if anything to do with big budgets. It's simply someone intelligent- and diligent enough to pay attention to detail and seek out the best sound for their money rather than simply following the herd. It doesn't matter if the budget is big or small.

I'd also take issue with the suggestion that a £200 or £300 budget turntable isn't a worthwhile investment. (Not what's been said word-for-word, but that's the intent.) A lot has changed in the last 10-20 years. Engineering with CNC milling machines makes high-precision manufacturing a volume activity and that's brought the costs down tremendously. £200 might still represent budget separates Hi-Fi, but it's no less audiophile for it.

Another misconception is that turntables are difficult to set up. Yes, they need a little more attention to detail (there's that audiophile value again); the deck needs to be on a level surface and there's a certain procedure to adjusting the tone arm. But big scary words like calibration are just bandied about to frighten the uninitiated. The most difficult task with a turntable is fitting a new cartridge. However, since that's already done at the factory then there's really no need to be concerned.

The simple fact is that the sort of vinyl-based Hi-Fi system we are discussing here would put a massive smile on anyone's face. Well, maybe not everyone: Those so up themselves that they believe a fat wallet equals being an audiophile would be the only ones who turn their noses up.

[niall campbell]

£200 to £300 is a healthy budget for turntable !

I like a 2nd hand bargain and gumtree and ebay can throw up some gems.

I think mixing and matching is a great way to build up a decent hi fi system

[unique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by niall campbell

I just wonder if the OP is better to go down the 2nd hand route and build his way up ?

Biwiring etc of speakers of any interest

i think thats a good suggestion, something i mentioned myself. if i was going to suggest a new setup for that budget i'd suggest the basics of a 5.1 seperates system instead, and leave out the turntable and see if one can be found second hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Being an audiophile has very little if anything to do with big budgets. It's simply someone intelligent- and diligent enough to pay attention to detail and seek out the best sound for their money rather than simply following the herd. It doesn't matter if the budget is big or small.

of course that's simply your opinion, which not everyone will agree to, such as whoever put together the wiki article which specifically mentions

"The term High-end audio refers to playback equipment used by audiophiles"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

anyone with a real interest in hifi who's spent some time in specialist hi fi stores will be well aware that a £700 system is far from "high-end". that's not to say a £700 system can't sound great, and compared to speaker docks and the crap that many listen to with these days it's going to sound amazing by comparison. but that's mainly going to be the speakers and amp as opposed to the turntable specifically. get a good amp and speaker setup and even playing mp3s from an ipod will sound hugely better than a speaker dock

Quote:

I'd also take issue with the suggestion that a £200 or £300 budget turntable isn't a worthwhile investment. (Not what's been said word-for-word, but that's the intent.)

well you are wrong there. the intent is to make the OP have a think about purchasing a turntable at all, as that may not be the best route to go down. a good amp and speaker setup is key, but at that price point a cd player at the same budget as the turntable will usually sound better with like for like quality source material. some people think that just because they play something from a record it's going to sound miles better, but that's a myth. pops, crackles, hiss, rumble and hum are common issues with playing vinly that you don't get with cd. i have 3 turntables at home and rarely play them, i much prefer cd. and of course now we have HD audio which sounds even better, so that's an alternate route worth considering, such as an hdmi equipped amp and universal bluray player

Quote:

A lot has changed in the last 10-20 years. Engineering with CNC milling machines makes high-precision manufacturing a volume activity and that's brought the costs down tremendously. £200 might still represent budget separates Hi-Fi, but it's no less audiophile for it.

at least you agree it's budget hifi, but the last bit differs from what many audiophiles would agree with, and certainly differs from the wiki explanation which clearly relates to high end and not budget end audio. that's not to say a £200 turntable isn't a decent budget piece of kit, as certainly the recommendation by the store was a good one

Quote:

Another misconception is that turntables are difficult to set up. Yes, they need a little more attention to detail (there's that audiophile value again); the deck needs to be on a level surface and there's a certain procedure to adjusting the tone arm. But big scary words like calibration are just bandied about to frighten the uninitiated. The most difficult task with a turntable is fitting a new cartridge. However, since that's already done at the factory then there's really no need to be concerned.

you appear to be the first to mention turntable installation as difficult. the point is that an item like a cd player works out the box as-is and requires no fiddling about, whereas a turntable does need to be setup correctly, and calibrated is the word usually associated with setting up a turntable. perhaps you just don't like the wording being used, but the words i use are pretty standard for hifi. for a complete novis, it's perhaps worth pointing out these things, don't you think?

Quote:

The simple fact is that the sort of vinyl-based Hi-Fi system we are discussing here would put a massive smile on anyone's face. Well, maybe not everyone: Those so up themselves that they believe a fat wallet equals being an audiophile would be the only ones who turn their noses up.

i presume from that you believe a fat wallet equals being an audiophile then?

usually it's the other way round. after spending so much on a setup, people are usually broke

[2Bdecided]

The best speakers you can afford, a decent second hand amp, and an iPod/iPhone/whatever similar device you already have with high quality audio files on it. That's what I'd spend £700 on in 2015 to get decent audio. A good room to listen in helps, otherwise I'd stick to decent headphones instead.

Cheers,
David.

[Chris Frost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

… if i was going to suggest a new setup for that budget i'd suggest the basics of a 5.1 seperates system instead, and leave out the turntable and see if one can be found second hand

Okay, so let me just be sure I understand you correctly…

Someone comes on to ask about buying a decent 2 channel Hi-Fi specifically to play vinyl, and you’re suggestion is to tell them they can’t have Hi-Fi at all because they’re pockets aren’t deep enough!?! On top of that you add that they’re wasting their time even considering vinyl, and then to top it all off you’re now suggesting that an AV system is the right direction to move in. Is that right???

Let’s just be crystal clear here. Someone wants a good stereo system….. but you think that they should buy an AV amp and set of surround speakers? …….. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha!!!. Let alone the fact that blithely dismiss the OPer’s main reason for enquiring (a turntable, just to remind you in case you’d forgotten), do you even understand the differences in what you’re suggesting?


Re: the definition of audiophile and it not being about budget

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

of course that's simply your opinion, which not everyone will agree to, such as whoever put together the wiki article which specifically mentions

"The term High-end audio refers to playback equipment used by audiophiles"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

Well yes, it is my opinion. Mine is formed from years spent helping people in real life get the best they can for their money. If you were a true audiophile yourself then you’d recognise where Matilda.cs is coming from.

I wonder too, since you quoted Wiki, if you actually bothered to read the articles? They actually agree with my view. “Audiophile equipment can run the gamut from budget to high-end in terms of price range” and “An audiophile is a person enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction” Both quotes taken directly from the two Wiki articles, thus disproving your 'only deep pockets need apply' view of things

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

anyone with a real interest in hifi who's spent some time in specialist hi fi stores will be well aware that a £700 system is far from "high-end". that's not to say a £700 system can't sound great

… okay, so far so good. You’re acknowledging that a £700 system can sound good. Right, you’re starting to talk sense finally….

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

and compared to speaker docks and the crap that many listen to with these days it's going to sound amazing by comparison. but that's mainly going to be the speakers and amp as opposed to the turntable specifically. get a good amp and speaker setup and even playing mp3s from an ipod will sound hugely better than a speaker dock

… oh dear. Off the rails you go. What’s any of that got to do with the OP?.

Regarding whether £200-£300 on a Project turntable is a worthwhile investment

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

well you are wrong there. the intent is to make the OP have a think about purchasing a turntable at all, as that may not be the best route to go down. a good amp and speaker setup is key, but at that price point a cd player at the same budget as the turntable will usually sound better with like for like quality source material. some people think that just because they play something from a record it's going to sound miles better, but that's a myth. pops, crackles, hiss, rumble and hum are common issues with playing vinly that you don't get with cd. i have 3 turntables at home and rarely play them, i much prefer cd. and of course now we have HD audio which sounds even better, so that's an alternate route worth considering, such as an hdmi equipped amp and universal bluray player

Yes, I see it was your intention to torpedo Matilda.cs’s turntable idea from the start. If I were in her(?) shoes then I probably be thinking “I’m reconsidering it, alright. Stuff you and your arrogance for suggesting I can’t have what I want. I’m more determined than ever now.”

Look at the OP again. It’s all about vinyl and the desire to continue collecting it, playing it and enjoying it. Quite whether you think that Matilda.cs is barking up the wrong tree is frankly rather arrogant presumption. What you do at home is your own business.

There are already suitable products and a very sensible budget for a vinyl starter system, so really, what’s your problem?


Regarding improved manufacturing technics and volume production making Hi-Fi more accessible at lower prices

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

at least you agree it's budget hifi, but the last bit differs from what many audiophiles would agree with, and certainly differs from the wiki explanation which clearly relates to high end and not budget end audio. that's not to say a £200 turntable isn't a decent budget piece of kit, as certainly the recommendation by the store was a good one

Yes, Wiki, whom you seem to love, also agrees that “audiophile” includes budget Hi-Fi too. Oh look, that’s exactly what I said, isn’t it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

you appear to be the first to mention turntable installation as difficult

Actually, no. You were. Here’s your line from post #7, your first post in this thread…

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

the tone arm needs to be calibrated properly as you can cause permanent damage to your records if it's set badly

Care to respond?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

you appear to be the first to mention turntable installation as difficult. the point is that an item like a cd player works out the box as-is and requires no fiddling about, whereas a turntable does need to be setup correctly, and calibrated is the word usually associated with setting up a turntable. perhaps you just don't like the wording being used, but the words i use are pretty standard for hifi. for a complete novis, it's perhaps worth pointing out these things, don't you think?

I have no problem with the word “calibrate” except when used to frighten folks with techno-babble unnecessarily. You weren’t trying to inform. You were simply trying to scare in order to force a change to CD.

There’s a way to introduce words of warning without pulling the fire alarm. Setting the tracking and anti-skate correctly is important. But there’s no need to make a big deal out of it other than to say it’s part of the set up process.

Every new turntable with tone arm I have sold and installed has come with instructions. Those instructions included the procedures for setting up the arm during installation, and then for adjusting the tracking weight and the anti-skate to suit. The procedure may be new and unfamiliar to an end user at first, but following the step-by-step instructions will get the job done properly.

Decent Hi-Fi shops used to deliver and set up gear for folk in their homes as part of the service. Things are a little more free and easy now. Customers are more likely to take the goods away. However, that doesn’t stop a conscientious dealer from showing a customer the process on one of the shops turntables and letting them have a go themselves.

There’s also a wealth of information on-line in the form of videos and tutorials. If all that fails then there are the forums such as this one to offer advice. Really, there’s no need to cause a panic.

Oh, and by the way, the word is spelled “novice” and not novis.


Regarding my opinion that a good budget Hi-Fi would make all smile except the snobby elitists who buy expensive gear to show off

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

i presume from that you believe a fat wallet equals being an audiophile then?

OMG….. how did you come to such a mistaken conclusion? After everything I’d written, somehow you managed to concoct a version in your own mind where you seriously believe that I think fat wallets equals audiophile!?!. You’re either deluded or a troll.

[unique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

Okay, so let me just be sure I understand you correctly…

Someone comes on to ask about buying a decent 2 channel Hi-Fi specifically to play vinyl, and you’re suggestion is to tell them they can’t have Hi-Fi at all because they’re pockets aren’t deep enough!?!

no. i'm sure you can read, so have a read at my post and see that it doesn't say this

Quote:

On top of that you add that they’re wasting their time even considering vinyl, and then to top it all off you’re now suggesting that an AV system is the right direction to move in. Is that right???

wrong again

Quote:

Let’s just be crystal clear here. Someone wants a good stereo system….. but you think that they should buy an AV amp and set of surround speakers? …….. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha!!!. Let alone the fact that blithely dismiss the OPer’s main reason for enquiring (a turntable, just to remind you in case you’d forgotten), do you even understand the differences in what you’re suggesting?

you clearly have a problem reading and understanding posts, and you try and take the mick out of others?

Quote:

Re: the definition of audiophile and it not being about budget
Well yes, it is my opinion. Mine is formed from years spent helping people in real life get the best they can for their money. If you were a true audiophile yourself then you’d recognise where Matilda.cs is coming from.

my opinion is also from decades of experience and from spending considerable sums improving equipment over the years, learning from mistakes too. so from that perspective, sometimes pointing out that someone should perhaps reconsider before they make a decision can be a very useful piece of advise. if you knew about hifi as you do, you would know that technically what i'm saying is correct. you don't seem to knock the technical aspects of what i say, so it sounds like you are just looking to argue instead of be helpful

Quote:

I wonder too, since you quoted Wiki, if you actually bothered to read the articles? They actually agree with my view. “Audiophile equipment can run the gamut from budget to high-end in terms of price range” and “An audiophile is a person enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction” Both quotes taken directly from the two Wiki articles, thus disproving your 'only deep pockets need apply' view of things

i wonder if you actually bothered to read my posts, as i say one thing and you say i said something completely different. i never said anything of the sort of that last part you quoted, which you can read for yourself from my posts to confirm

Quote:

… okay, so far so good. You’re acknowledging that a £700 system can sound good. Right, you’re starting to talk sense finally….

everything i've said makes sense, and from the bat i didn't say anything to suggest a £700 system wouldn't have sounded good, in fact the opposite

Quote:

… oh dear. Off the rails you go. What’s any of that got to do with the OP?.

if anyone is going off the rails it's you. surely you can tell from the OP's post they don't appear to have a proper hifi amp and setup, so must be using something else to listen to music. the point is that an upgrade to that level of equipment will sound considerably better than docking stations and other non hifi equipment, but thats mainly because of the proper amp and speaker as opposed to the source. in other words, the great sound from a £700 setup is mainly due to amp and speaker rather than a turntable, and a well matched cd player within that budget instead of turntable will usually sound better as well as needing less setup and looking after source material

Quote:

Regarding whether £200-£300 on a Project turntable is a worthwhile investment


Yes, I see it was your intention to torpedo Matilda.cs’s turntable idea from the start.

wrong again.you aren't right very often are you? i even said the turntable mentioned was a reasonable choice, and mentioned looking at the second hand route

Quote:

If I were in her(?) shoes then I probably be thinking “I’m reconsidering it, alright. Stuff you and your arrogance for suggesting I can’t have what I want. I’m more determined than ever now.”

well you don't seem to be a good judge on reading what people are actually posting, and understanding what they are saying, so you are probably wrong again. on the other hand she may think your posts are arrogant and you've put her off wanting anything to do with it. your arguing isn't helping the OP make a decision

Quote:

Look at the OP again. It’s all about vinyl and the desire to continue collecting it, playing it and enjoying it. Quite whether you think that Matilda.cs is barking up the wrong tree is frankly rather arrogant presumption. What you do at home is your own business.

There are already suitable products and a very sensible budget for a vinyl starter system, so really, what’s your problem?

i have no problem at all. it's not my money. i offer advice, it's up to the OP to choose what they want. what is your problem with the advice i give, which is perfectly fine and acceptable advice, and may perhaps be the best choice for the OP?

Quote:

Regarding improved manufacturing technics and volume production making Hi-Fi more accessible at lower prices

Yes, Wiki, whom you seem to love, also agrees that “audiophile” includes budget Hi-Fi too. Oh look, that’s exactly what I said, isn’t it.

it doesn't say it in the article and quote i posted. did you edit it?

Quote:

Actually, no. You were. Here’s your line from post #7, your first post in this thread…

Care to respond?

i don't see the word difficult in there. it's yet another thing you are wrong about. you are seeing things that simply aren't there. if you use search you will see that again i'm correct and you were the first person to mention the word "difficult"

you seem to confuse a simple sentance saying something needs to be done properly, as that thing being difficult. you need to insert a cd properly into a cd player to make it work, if you put it in upside down it wont play. now that's not difficult is it?

Quote:

I have no problem with the word “calibrate” except when used to frighten folks with techno-babble unnecessarily. You weren’t trying to inform. You were simply trying to scare in order to force a change to CD.

wrong again. calibrate isn't even a scary word. you seem to have a real issue with words and understanding them don't you?

Quote:

There’s a way to introduce words of warning without pulling the fire alarm. Setting the tracking and anti-skate correctly is important. But there’s no need to make a big deal out of it other than to say it’s part of the set up process.

over reacting again. someone new to turntables may not have a clue what is meant by tracking and anti skate, but would know what being setup correctly or being calibrated correctly might mean. just as someone who doesn't know much about cards wouldn't have a clue when technical engine parts are mentioned but would know when someone said the engine needs tuned

again this is your opinion against someone elses. it's the opinion of the OP that counts. don't forget about the OP. they can continue with the conversation and ask further questions or explanation. no need for you to take it upon yourself to say what the OP knows and doesn't know and what they may or may not understand. that simply sounds rather presumptions and condescending and arrogant to me

Quote:

Every new turntable with tone arm I have sold and installed has come with instructions. Those instructions included the procedures for setting up the arm during installation, and then for adjusting the tracking weight and the anti-skate to suit. The procedure may be new and unfamiliar to an end user at first, but following the step-by-step instructions will get the job done properly.

ah, so here comes out the truth. you probably sell turntables so you have a vested personal interest in people being interested in and buying such products. so your advice really is far from impartial. i have no vested interest and only look to offer advice, regardless of what the OP wants to buy, from the point of someone with a personal interest

[d]ALERT TO OP - ADVICE GIVEN BY CHRIS FROST IS NOT IMPARTIAL[/b]

Quote:

Decent Hi-Fi shops used to deliver and set up gear for folk in their homes as part of the service. Things are a little more free and easy now. Customers are more likely to take the goods away. However, that doesn’t stop a conscientious dealer from showing a customer the process on one of the shops turntables and letting them have a go themselves.

this is why in my first post i suggested the OP goes to a specialist store. hopefully she doesn't end up in yours

Quote:

There’s also a wealth of information on-line in the form of videos and tutorials. If all that fails then there are the forums such as this one to offer advice. Really, there’s no need to cause a panic.

likewise i suggested a hifi magazine. you are the only one to mention panic or suggest it btw

Quote:

Oh, and by the way, the word is spelled “novice” and not novis.

so picking up on typos i presume you are pedantic or have OCD? something else for the OP to consider when reading your posts

Quote:

Regarding my opinion that a good budget Hi-Fi would make all smile except the snobby elitists who buy expensive gear to show off


OMG….. how did you come to such a mistaken conclusion? After everything I’d written, somehow you managed to concoct a version in your own mind where you seriously believe that I think fat wallets equals audiophile!?!. You’re either deluded or a troll.

again another good example of you not understanding what is posted

[Chris Frost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by unique

no. i'm sure you can read, so <SNIP>

You're crackers..... pure and simple.

/end

[unique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

You're crackers..... pure and simple.

/end

wrong again.

you know you are losing an argument when you need to use insults instead of facts, and throughout your replies you've misquoted and insulted frequently as opposed to using facts. it is notable that you don't disagree with the technical facts i've posted, but your main points of disagreement were semantics about the words i've used, in other words a pointless waste of time. hopefully it won't have put the OP off. it's a shame you had to spoil the thread with your ranting

[Chris Frost]

It doesn't seem to matter if I quote you directly or paraphrase you; so really, what's the point if you won't stand by what you wrote?

I've already summarised what you said up in the previous post, but a précis would be "What you want won't be audiophile, you're not rich enough. Forget vinyl; go with CD. Buy the start of a surround system rather than a 2ch Hi-Fi." I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's how it reads off the page.

What I've said is that for the budget there's plenty of choice of gear that is audiophile. I've then given some pointers on gear combinations and system building. That's what a helpful post looks like.

As for your technical facts..... You mean gems such as "all your audio is ultimately going to come out the speakers" or "get a good amp and speaker setup and even playing mp3s from an ipod will sound hugely better than a speaker dock" Yep. Technically correct and at the same time utterly redundant, hence pointless addressing them previously until you insisted right now. Clearly there's a conversation going on in your head that doesn't make it to your written word. Equally when you're reading replies then it appears as if there's some sort of screwed up translation going on.

On the evidence so far then it seems that any attempt to engage in reasoned discussion with you is a waste of my time. I feel sorry for Matilda.cs that she had to witness your rambling and discouraging diatribe.

[Menoetius]

If I had £700 to spend on a vinyl based system then I'd be looking at used kit.

The only item I'd consider new would be the turntable and the Carbon would be the one I'd go for.

For the amp, I would look at an old high end AV amp. They go for next to nowt. As they don't have HDMI etc, they are overlooked. So they're cheap. But the quality of amplification is right up there. Better value than a used 2 channel amp.
There's a Yamaha DSP-A2 available on a certain auction site for £70.
That's buy it now. Seventy pounds for a piece of kit that was a thousand pounds new.
It might not have the video whistles and bells but for 2 channel .... it will smash anything you could possibly buy at £70. Or double.. and then some.
The DSP-A2 has a moving magnet input, so no need for a pre-amp purchase. I'd recommend a separate pre-amp but the in built one will be fine for now and allow for more budget to go to a pair of speakers.

Couple that with a Carbon, that leaves £300 for speakers, cables ( and a pre-amp if you fancy).

So, £300 for speakers to go with a DSP-A2 and a Project Carbon.
The Yamaha has shed loads of oomph, great match for a lovely pair of Quad 11L speakers available at the moment for £90 plus postage. Stupid money for a lovely pair of speakers that will really suit the rest of the kit.
Going slightly over budget, I'd look at these PMC TB2's. PMC make stunning speakers. Really stunning... Matched with a decent amp, like the ridiculously cheap Yamaha above, you're going to be blown away.

£500 for the Project Debut Carbon, Yamaha DSP-A2 and Quad 11L speakers. That's one hell of a system for the dosh.
Or spend the extra on the PMC speakers. For £800, that's a system and a half. I am biased when it comes to PMC, I must admit. I own a pair of their floorstanders and they're something else. But hey, I've been selling hi-fi and home cinema kit to customers since 1994, what can you do?

[unique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frost

It doesn't seem to matter if I quote you directly or paraphrase you; so really, what's the point if you won't stand by what you wrote?

I stand by what I write, but not necessarily what someone misquotes, misunderstands or paraphrases if they do so incorrectly, which you have done a number of times

as such, why don't you leave the OP to read and understand what I say for themselves, as ultimately they have asked for advice, and it's their decision as what to purchase or not. not yours, and not mine

Quote:

I've already summarised what you said up in the previous post, but a précis would be "What you want won't be audiophile, you're not rich enough. Forget vinyl; go with CD. Buy the start of a surround system rather than a 2ch Hi-Fi." I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's how it reads off the page.

well you are wrong again. there is no need for you to rewrite the words I've already said in my own words. the OP can read for themselves and interpret and understand for themselves. they could probably do without some condescending explanation from a third party

Quote:

What I've said is that for the budget there's plenty of choice of gear that is audiophile. I've then given some pointers on gear combinations and system building. That's what a helpful post looks like.

that's what a helpful comment may look like. but now most of your comments aren't very helpful as you are simply arguing semantics and other pointless nonsense

Quote:

As for your technical facts..... You mean gems such as "all your audio is ultimately going to come out the speakers" or "get a good amp and speaker setup and even playing mp3s from an ipod will sound hugely better than a speaker dock" Yep. Technically correct

so as you agree my statements are technically correct, there's really no reason to argue with them

Quote:

and at the same time utterly redundant, hence pointless

wrong yet again

the point is clear. if the OP buys a decent amp and speaker setup, most of what it will play should be notably better than had it being played through a dock. therefore it's not the turntable specifically that's creating the great sound, but the sum of the combined parts. therefore if a turntable system is demonstrated, the great sound isn't solely or main because of the turntable, but only part of it, and if a decent cd player at similar budget was used as source instead of the turntable, then it would probably sound better. so rather than spending money on a turntable for good sound, a cd player should be considered. note the word considered. that means that I'm not saying someone should buy a cd player or turntable, and I'm not saying they shouldn't. but that I recommend they consider it before making a purchase. in simple terms I'm saying someone going from no hifi to a complete system with turntable should have a think about a system with a cd player instead. what they then buy is their choice. not yours and not mine

Quote:

addressing them previously until you insisted right now. Clearly there's a conversation going on in your head that doesn't make it to your written word. Equally when you're reading replies then it appears as if there's some sort of screwed up translation going on.

again this may be your opinion, and again you are wrong. you are the one rewriting my words. why don't you let the OP read and understand for themselves. if they have any issues or questions they can also ask for themselves

Quote:

On the evidence so far then it seems that any attempt to engage in reasoned discussion with you is a waste of my time. I feel sorry for Matilda.cs that she had to witness your rambling and discouraging diatribe.

my words are neither rambling or discouraging, nor a diatribe. one thing that's worth pointing out however, even though it's clearly obvious is that most of my posts on this thread as a result of the absolute crap you have posted. so any issues in regarding the crap posted on this thread is a direct result of your own actions. what I have posted is all correct technically, and you have even confirmed yourself. your main points of issue are simply semantics and wording. as the OP hasn't replied since the first post we have no idea if they have any issue with such wording, but if they did, they can surely post and ask for themselves without needing arrogant and condescending people doing it for them

[Chris Frost]

/whatever

[SnrDev]

Is that it? I was enjoying this.

Agree with the +ve comments for PMC speakers. They're pretty good.

[jjne]

OP, at this stage in the game I'd look seriously at buying a used turntable. There are some very good bargains out there.

For occasional use, one of the mainstream Japanese belt-drive units from the 80s or 90s will provide good service.

It's a similar story for the amplifier to be honest. I would avoid older speakers unless you can test them carefully before purchase.

But you could get something entirely serviceable for under £200.

[Matilda.cs]

hi all,
I've listened to everyone and I've waited to source as much info as possible from all posters.
Some advice has been very good.
I think I'd rather pay more for the Carbon as you get a better deck for only a bit more money. I'm now thinking I'll build a system to play my current collection of CD's/iTunes library and add the turntable afterwards.

Therefore, the only question is, now, speaker and amp.

With the quality of speaker available at £100 new, I'm happy to just go for the Diamond's or the Zensor's. I saw zensor's in white which would compliment my living room.

So I guess, it just leaves me with the Amp.

I'm tempted to look for something second hand as I could always upgrade later. I think I do want something that'll allow me to get the best out of my current CD's and digital collection.

With that in mind - any ideas?

Someone said something with HDMI in, but my pc doesn't support HDMI out? ::confused

[chrisjr]

How much do you want to spend?

For 130 quid you could do a lot worse than this

http://www.richersounds.com/product/...ae/deno-pma520

It would give you very good service for a lot of years (from personal experience of the brand). It will certainly survive upgrades to the speakers if you start out with something modest then decide to upgrade later.

And it has an input for a turntable ready for when you get round to that.

Not quite sure what the reference to HDMI was all about. You are far more likely to find those on AV surround sound receivers than stereo systems.

[jjne]

When it comes to CD players, in 2015 I would suggest you veer off toward the DAC route.

There will come a time when you want to add a network streamer, digital radio and the like.

A CD player restricts you in this regard. The main weakness with a lot of streamers etc is the DAC stage, but both they and a typical cheap Blu-Ray player (or indeed inexpensive CD or DVD unit) will output a bit-perfect digital signal.

By investing in a good DAC, and not so much on the transport (as I say just about anything modern in good condition will give the same result), you have something which will be more future-proofed.

The TEAC UD-H01 is a decent unit to start looking if interested... it has a headphone amp and iPhone dock built-in if you need that, and performs well.