if you are buying a new amp, I would suggest aiming for one with hdmi as many/most new amps do, as with the hmdi you can connect most modern dvd or bluray players, plus a whole load of other things, so it future proofs it a bit. connecting a bluray player via hmdi will allow you to play cds through it (obviously you need to then connect the amp to a tv as you need to see the menus, but can usually turn off the tv once playing - tho cd's should just play without you needing to see anything). an hdmi amp would usually also have optic and coax digital inputs, and perhaps one or two sets of phono sockets for analogue stuff. so your pc will be able to connect one way or another. one downside to most modern amps such as those with hdmi is they won't include a phono stage for a turntable so you may need a little pre-amp, but they aren't expensive

depending on the pc, if it's a desktop at least and not 10+ years old approx., you should be able to upgrade the graphics card and get something with hmdi from about £20 new. the card won't be great for gaming so if you are already a gamer and have a decent graphics card it may not be a great route, if not and you have a pci-e slot that fits then this would let you output via hdmi and let you play HD audio etc direct from pc to amp (which is what I do - I don't play games)

down the second hand route, perhaps two simple options. look at freecycle for free stuff, and look on ebay, and see what you like the look of and then google up for reviews and specs and info. if you were going down the stereo only route you will probably find plenty to pick from

if you have more cds and digital media than vinyl, this sounds the best route. I'd suggest put the money towards the speakers and amp first, unless you strike lucky and get an amazing deal, and perhaps look for a bargain cd player or buy £50 bluray player to start off with, and you can upgrade in the future. universal players start around the £180 mark, those play dvd audio and sacd as well as blurays, dvds and cds, so would give you something to let you hear the latest hi definition audio. that would need an hdmi amp though. and a fair amount of HD audio is surround sound, but not all. but you can start with 2 speakers and an amp, then a source like bluray player and work your way up by adding speakers later if you want a surround setup

I'll second the Denon 520 mention earlier, but if you want to add a bit more to the purchase have a look the Pioneer A20 and the Marantz PM5005 - both have phono stage.

http://m.richersounds.com/#!/product/PION-A20-BLK

http://m.richersounds.com/#!/product/MARA-PM5005-BLK

The point about HDMI, is that the OP asked for advice about a system to play vinyl - audio - and as many people are upgrading AV system amps to ones with HDMI, there are many used pre-HDMI AV receivers on the market which have no value for their original purpose but provide excellent audio quality for the money.

i've not looked at the second hand market myself, but certainly in respect of the stereo amps i've seen folk nearly given them away for nothing

i'm not sure what kind of deals there are on second hand AV gear without hdmi but i would tread carefully in that area as the lack of hdmi would have limitations on the use of HD audio. also when looking for a new HDMI av amp you will usually come across a range of other bonus features such as being able to stream media from a pc over a network, or play spotify and things like that. i'm not sure if the OP does that already or not or is interested, but potentially the option of being able to do that could be of interest

so you could get a new hmdi amp for about £150 up with a load of features like that for example. you would need to consider what would be worthwhile in the second hand AV market. for example there could be a cracking amp that was say £600 thats going for £100 and sound great, but won't have the features a newer model has, and the difference in sound quality between the two may not be that perceptive to the OP, or be considered as having the same value as the extra features. personally i would look for a new/recent model, perhaps a deal from richer sounds, even though i wouldn't use streaming features as i have seperate facilities to do so, but the hdmi alone with a universal bluray player is a key feature worth seeking, and that's the reason why people would be selling up older av amps, to get newer ones with hdmi. as part of an AV system, having a load of gear plugged by one hdmi cable into the amp that you can switch all inputs by remote, plus volume etc, is pretty nice, and more noticable as being nice if you had a previous setup that didn't, especially if you had loads of 3 in 1 adapters to make up for a lack of hdmi sockets on the display

The OP has expressed interest in vinyl, CD and iTunes, HD audio is associated with Bluray and multichannel audio, as far as I can see that is not a requirement.

IMO £150 would be better spent on a dedicated stereo amp than on a multichannel amp, why pay for additional features and video curcuitry that possibly won't be required, that money would go towards better quality DACs, amps etc.

If the OP wants to expand a little on features, which would make sence seeing they have mentioned itunes and a pc. Monitor Audio do the A100, it has optical/analogue connections for their CD, it also has USB and supports air play/DLNA, perfect for itunes/pc, though it will need a pre-amp for a turntable - originally £400, RS are doing it for £199.

it might be your understanding of the situation, but you would be very wrong there. HD audio comes in everything from mono to stereo as well as multi channel, and has been around much longer than bluray has been on the market, with SACD being the first main consumer product offering HD audio, followed by DVDA, and then downloads like FLAC from places like HDtune. a lot of HD audio is simply stereo as it's a simple HD transfer of the original masters, whereas surround audio typically requires a remix of original masters unless the original tracks were mixed in surround, which isn't common for music albums

the OP stated in the first post the were hoping for audiophile quality, and HD audio is easily acheivable within the budget and is capable of providing better quality audio than vinly, cd and itunes

at the end of the day the OP makes the decision of what they want to buy, and has simply asked for advice. let the OP take issue with posters if they disagree or want to query what is said


again that is your opinion, but you aren't the OP and you aren't the one who is buying for the OP. the OP can make their own decision regards to what is right for them


for a budget of £200 or less you can get one with HDMI and surround and DLNA, USB, etc though. add a universal bluray player connected by HDMI and you can be covered with most digital formats including HD audio

however it's the OP's choice as to what they consider most appropriate for their needs. i'd suggest future proofing with an HDMI amp, and DLNA, USB whatever if desired

FLAC is a lossless audio codec, audio is compressed in FLAC without loss of quality, bitrate could be as low as 320kbps - I wouldn't regard FLAC as HD audio.

You keep insisting HDMI is the way to go because if not, you'd lose out on HD audio, well, you can certainly play FLAC/DVDA over optical/coaxial/stereo phonos, SACD requires multichannel analogue inputs/outputs, so no need for HDMI unless you want True HD/DTS HD MA formats from Bluray.

The OP was asking for advice on a vinyl setup, hopefully audiophile quality, not multichannel audio, HD audio, or bluray - would you recommend an estate car to someone only interested in a two seater city car?

Yes, I did say it was IMO, and it was sound advice for the OP.


I'm simply suggesting the OP would be better of buying something dedicated to their needs, not paying for extra requirements ie. surround sound and Bluray player.

the more you say, the more it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about

you previously said "HD audio is associated with Bluray and multichannel audio," - which is incorrect as i pointed out. FLAC is simply a codec. that codec supports hi definition audio, in mono, stereo and surround sound, contrary to yout last quoted comment. FLAC has little to nothing to do with bluray and doesn't have to be multichannel


wrong again. it's my suggestion to be considered


you can pass HD audio through analogue, but the usual standards for coax and optical don't have sufficient bandwidth to allow multichannel HD sound. any multichannel sound via optical and coax with standard hardware is lossy

regarding SACD you don't need multichannel analogue inputs/outputs as if you have the correct hardware you can use hdmi. similarly with DVDA

hdmi however has sufficient bandwidth to carry multichannel HD lossless audio, so it's a technically superior format, and more future proof.


i wouldn't recommend any cars to anyone as i know little to nothing about cars. the OP isn't asking about cars, but about hifi, and if you bothered to read the OP's comments, they seem to be more interested in digital formats than vinly now, according to their last post. that is after reading the recommendations and advise on this thread


again in your opinion



i'm also suggesting the OP should buy what suits their needs. you don't know what that is however, so saying surround sound and bluray player is not what they need is making a presumption without knowing the full story. note that i'm not the only person who made a suggestion about a bluray player

a hdmi amp matched with a bluray player can provide great sound in either stereo or multichannel. the OP can start with a 2.0 setup and upgrade without having to change the amp if they later wish to move from a stereo setup to multichannel, without having to replace/upgrade the amp if they bought a stereo one. it again makes for a more future proof setup. ultimately it's the OP's decision what they choose to buy

Here's a used amp / speaker combo that offers superb performance and leaves enough cash for the turntable and any cables etc.

The Technics amp is a great piece of kit. I sold these back in the 90's. My mate bought one second hand a couple of years ago and uses them to drive a pair of Mission752's. The phono stage is MM and MC. It has loads of oomph and sounds excellent.

I sold the Quads, too. Lovely speakers. Never failed to impress in the dem room.
I'd recommend the little brother of the aforementioned Mission 752's, the Mission 751's
Fantastic bookshelf speakers. If you can pick up a pair for £120 - £150, you'll be very happy.
Or if you are lucky enough to see anything like this ridiculous listing, just snap it up. Fifty quid !!! ??

This 1990's Marantz is a decent choice, too. Sounds nice and has a pretty good built in phono stage, so a plus in a vinyl based system.

If you want new speakers, you mentioned the Dali Zensor 1's. Sold these as well, cracking speakers for the money. I'd take them over something like the more expensive Monitor Audio BX2's. Q Acoustics do some nice bookshelf speakers, too.

But I wouldn't buy new.

One more speaker suggestion.

If you want white, look at these. Even you if you pay top dollar, they'll still cost less than the Dali Zensor in white and will sound better, in my opinion ( I've not done a direct comparison but I've sold both ... years apart).
The listing says no grilles, though.
Also, they weren't originally white. Says "These speakers have been professionally cellulose 2 pack spray coated in gloss white to better tie in with our interior".
My first proper job in the late 80's / early 90's was at a motor factors. I used to mix paint, back when 2 pack was what you put on a car, not on a cd player.

The only suggestion I can make, is if you've got a cat, shut it out while you play records.

FLAC, WAV and DSD are simply containers (files) that can support HD Audio, that doesnt mean all encoded audio carried in these containers (files) will be high resolution audio. There is no standard for HD audio, but it is generally accepted that encoded audio that has a sample rate of 44100hz and above and a bit depth of 16 and greater is classed as HD audio. So audio encoded at only 22500Hz sample rate and only 8bits won't be regarded as HD Audio.

You said the lack of HDMI would have limitations on HD audio, that limitation would only apply to the formats associated with Bluray ie. True HD and DTS HD MA, because the HD audio containers (files) you were referring to that support HD audio do not require HDMI to hear them back, so if you weren't referring to these formats what were you referring too?

Never said FLAC had anything to do with Bluray- only mentioned it was a lossless codec and not all audio will be of HD audio quality.


Precisely my point, no need for HDMI if multichannel HD audio is of no interest.


I'm fully aware of what they have posted, which is why I recommended Monitor Audio A100 as it will support their CD and iTunes collection with ease and gives them wireless and airplay to boot.


The OP has stated what they wanted advice on, vinyl, CD and iTunes, so I have a very good idea what will suit their needs, you are the one making presumptions suggesting multichannel amps and universal Bluray players.

But that is not what the OP is asking advice on, they haven't once mentioned multichannel surround or Bluray or given any indication it's of any interest.

If you're still talking about wanting audiophile quality on a budget, then a 2 channel 'purist' analogue Hi-Fi amp is the type that will achieve that most cost effectively. This is both new and second-hand.

The reason is that the inside of an analogue amp doesn't contain the sort of digital switching noise that you'd find inside an AV receiver. However, the inputs will all be on stereo phonos (analogue, using the red & white connectors), so all your sources must be able to output analogue sound too. Anything with matching red & white phono outputs should be fine. PCs have analogue audio out on 3.5mm headphone jacks. Jack to phono audio cables are available.

If some of your sources don't have any analogue outputs at all then you need either an amplifier with digital inputs, or you need an extra box to convert digital to analogue (a DAC).

Hi-Fi amps with DACs built-in are only a fairly recent development. This means that there's not as wide a selection of those as regular analogue amps. In purist Hi-Fi circles the more usual approach is to keep digital noise away from analogue circuits. That generally means running a DAC as a separate box. The market is changing though. There's some crossover products such as the Monitor Audio A100 that Deacon1972 mentioned that have digital inputs and built-in DACs. It's a step down in audiophile terms, but a decent choice if digital only sources have to be catered for.

Old high-end AV receivers without HDMI would be an alternative as previously suggested, but you'd have to go for the statement products such as the Yamaha DSP-A1, Pioneer VSX-AX10, -AX5 that were built for audio quality. The lesser AV amps/receivers would really be a massive step down in performance by comparison, so I'd avoid wasting your time with those. There's a couple of things to watch with the old AV amps though: First, they're enormous and heavy. An AX5i is almost half a metre deep, 42cm wide and 19cm high, and it weighs around 20kg!! Second, watch out for non-functioning remote controls; they do get a lot of hammer and are not cheap to replace.

Sound quality-wise the good ones rate a 7 out of 10 for music compared to Hi-Fi amp's 10/10.

Other AV amps; those with HDMI. There's no simple answer here. HDMI has been around in AV receivers for a good 10 years, but the very early receivers (Mostly onky TX-SR6xx series) that you're likely to pick up used for £50-£80 sounded poor with music. The manufacturers were just getting to grips with HDMI so it was expensive to implement. That meant a lot of other corners got cut to pay for the HDMI circuitry.

The closer you get to current times then the bigger the price range of HDMI receivers, but as prices fell on the budget models the sound quality didn't really improve. To get decent music capabilities you'd have to look up in price. There's a couple of nice Yamahas from 3~4 years ago (RX-V771, RX-V773) and prices for those are around the £200~£270 mark depending on condition. In terms of music quality I'd rate them about 6~7. They have a Pure mode which switches off all the video processing and as much of the digital circuitry including the front panel display as possible; that makes quite a big difference to the sound.

Chris, if you're looking at £270 odd for a top notch older AV receiver that excels in two channel then this is my recommendation....

Arcam AVR350

Absolutely fantastic for two channel audio. Pretty light on features ( has HDMI but won't carry HD audio, you'll be relying on the multichannel input for that) but about as good as it got for music from an AV amp for the money. It was £1500 new. Direct mode to help 2 channel and bi-amping through 6+7, which really helps with suitable speakers.

Here's a review. And another.

It is a stunning piece of kit. Properly musical.
I am biased. I bought mine new in 2007 and use it to bi-amp my PMC GB1s.

I've linked a few proper 2 channel amps in this thread. None of them will come close to this Arcam.

Speaker bargains are out there.

The Mission 751's in white that I mentioned earlier just sold for £74.

Seventy four pounds. You can't buy a brand new pair of speakers that will offer that sort of performance for the money. Double it and add £50 and you're still not close. Ok, so no 3 / 5 year warranty. But looked after, you don't need one.

That's why second hand is such a good option.

Good shout on the ARCAM. I don't know why I'd forgotten that because I've sold and installed a few.

My only criticism is how it's classed. While there are HDMIs on the back they do nothing except act as source switching. In that respect it's really a AV Receiver without HDMI because all the audio has to go in via coax / optical / stereo phono / multi-channel phono.

so in a nutshell, you know you were wrong when you said "HD audio is associated with Bluray and multichannel audio," and what i've said is correct?


you did however incorrectly say "HD audio is associated with Bluray and multichannel audio," when FLAC has little to nothing to do with bluray and doesn't need to be, and with multichannel audio, and is more commonly used with stereo material


wrong again.

HDMI carries HD audio in mono, stereo and multichannel


and i've made alternate recommendations. it's up to the OP what they choose


you have similarly made presumptions, however my advice is a little more open minded and perhaps better future proofed for upgrades. as has been pointed out a number of times now, you don't need to play mutlichannel audio or blurays on a multichannel amp or bluray player. a multichannel amp with hdmi can be used for either stereo or multichannel playback, and a bluray player can be used to play all sorts of things such as cds, dvds, sacd, dvda, bluray, bluray audio, stream music or videos such as FLAC, mp4, mpg, avi, mp3, wav, from either a pc or online, plus other online services such as netflix, youtube, amazon on demand or spotify, opening up a vast range of options for playing back music, which if i've understood correctly, is ultimately what the OP wants to do. for considerably less than the cost of a half decent budget turntable a bluray player with a multitude of features for playing music and videos can be had, which can play both older formats such as cd and the latesst formats of hi definition video, with the ability to provide higher quality audio than the turntable can provide

perhaps you or others disagree, but it's entirely up to the OP what they choose to buy with their money

i suggested second hand or freecycle in my first post, as similarly i wouldn't bother buying new for a stereo setup when there are so many bargains to be had second hand, and some of the items menoetius has pointed out have been pretty good deals. arcam make pretty good stuff for example, i have a stereo arcam amp sitting about unused myself but don't want to get rid of it for next to nothing and it's overkill for the kitchen, even though i have spare speakers and enough kit to make a full hifi setup it's just sitting there in a pile of unused hifi

it's worth having a look second hand to see what's what, but if buying new then the hdmi amp and bluray combo would be my recommendation. you can of course mix and match new and old together, so if you find second hand speakers they will do the trick, and likewise you can add a second hand turntable, but with the current trend it's perhaps not the best time to buy. i'm sure once the trend dies people will be dumping turntables at silly prices again, so that's a good time to snap one up if you can wait

I was initially wrong in not clarifying my reference to HD audio as meaning True HD and DTS HD MA, as it would be those formats associated with Bluray/multichannel audio which would be the limiting factor if the OP bought a second hand amp lacking in HDMI, because all other HD audio supported by FLAC etc is available without HDMI, but I did address that in post #32.

Well aware HDMI carries other formats, my point was, HDMI is not a necessity for the requirements of the OP in regards to their CD and itunes collection, and I'm not the only one to question the reference to HDMI, as it is more common on multichannel receivers.

I will agree that a second hand multichannel receiver like the Yamaha DSP A1 mentioned earlier would be a good buy, basically because of its quality two channel playback, and the OP would not be investing in components/circuitry that are not required.

A second hand pre/pro setup could also be worth looking into, stereo/multichannel. Some great names out there like Primare, Lexicon, Parasound, Briston and Tag McLaren, though they do tend to hold their price.

My other set up is a Denon AVR-2310 I find audio is very good on this amp and has plenty of bass on its own to.
This also has phono input and sell around £150 used.
Has all the latest HD audio to.
Can also have your own manual equalizer setting which some AVR amps don't have.

I'm assuming you are referring to Audyssey room EQ?

It can be very useful if you have a particularly bad room acoustically. I've had three Denons in the past (still use the AVR4520 in the front room), while I found Audyssey did a readonasble job for the main speakers, I found it didnt do a particularly good job with the low frequencies, so I decided to try the Velodyne SMS-1 which worked wonders.

I've now moved over to Pioneer and their flagship model, the MCACC pro software Pioneer uses is superb, so good in fact I leave the Pioneer to do all the calibration and the SMS-1 has stayed with the Denon.

With the right speakers Denon can sound wonderful with 2 channel material - in pure direct mode of course, none of this 5/7 channel stereo.

fair enough.

it also looks like most people agree that if looking for a stereo setup at least, then the second hand market is worth considering, so amongst the varied opinions there's some commong ground

If the aim is still to have an audiophile system, then the sort of new Blu-ray player in a price range that would fit here will suck as a main source for CD. Quite frankly it would be just as good if not better to rip the CDs on a PC, then put the money saved in to a better amp or speakers.

Blu-ray players might be able to play a wide range of audio formats, either from the disc tray or via streaming, but they don't make good CD players; well, not until the spend goes up to more than half the budget in this thread. Just thinking about my own AV system, the sound quality from a PS3 playing CD via HDMI isn't a patch on my old Denon DVD2900 DVD/CD/SACD player; and that's just in to an AV amp.

So unless there's a need to play actual Blu-rays then I'd suggest skipping the BD player completely. If Blu-ray movie playback is required then just get a cheap player (£50-£80) for convenience, sure; just don't use it for CDs. TBH, for someone who owns ARCAM gear such as yourself I'm a bit surprised you haven't made the audio comparison yourself. Do you think that a sub £200 Blu-ray player is as good as a standalone CD player in audio quality?

As for HD audio for music, what's available new on disc boils down to SACD and Blu-ray audio. Those formats represent a tiny fragment of recorded music pool. Unless diving in completely to that market then I can't see much point in buying a player just for those features when the CD performance would be so very much compromised. That's like the tail wagging the dog, surely?

...And for anything in downloadable format, couldn't that be played just as effectively from a PC? So again, there's not really much requirement to spend on hardware when the existing gear would do the job just as well.

If you're quibbling over the difference in audio quality from a BD player or CD player, you're going to need a pretty quiet PC not to interfere with the audio from streaming media.

That's a whole different can of worms, in my opinion.

Pound for pound, as Chris has suggested, a CD player will out perform a BD player in 2 channel. No question about that.

As for PC noise .. if you have a clogged up PC, full of dust and screaming like a banshee, you can get it cleaned out and replace the fans. It's a non issue. You could access your music library through an android TV box, wirelessly streaming from a PC or NAS in another room. Again, this is a non issue. It's not really relevant to an audio quality discussion. If you do have a noisy PC sitting a few feet from your listening position then sort it out. Simple.

There is one non CD player that I'd recommend looking at. It's a DVD player from a few years ago. The Denon DVD-2930. I recommend this because you can pick up this machine that originally cost £650 for as little as £40. You'll pay the same for an entry level Technics SL-PG390 CD player that's 20 years old. It is great for multichannel SACD and plays a few formats such as MP3 and WMA. You'd be hard pressed to get a CD player for such a small amount that can perform like this. It may not be the best CD player in the world ... but for £40 ?? It won't embarrass itself. It is decent. Just like old AVR's, old DVD players are overlooked. And some can really perform.