you totally disagree with all the contributing factors that have lead to a seemingly poor uninspired music scene we have today? not only the old people element, but big corporations, 'its all been done', and modern technology? THATS what i think... the question was one posed to stimulate debate, and to a degree i was playing devils advocate.

briefly..... old people used to facilitate, back, the young and their new ideas. but the ideas, fashions, styles, came from the young.

waterman popularised the complete package, and thats been the broad template ever since the late 80's, growing until many of todays acts are manufactured. those that arent adhere to 'the formula' of their chosen style. indie bands for eg, might compose their own material but they are all so bloody samish.

why do you need a survey?...just look at the album charts from yesteryear, its a no brainer in many cases to guess which artists have which fans. music was far more polarised before punk..

The OP appears to have upset young and old alike, not to mention those who enjoy contemporary music and those who do not. Quite an achievement, i must say

Because that's the only way we're going to get an objective answer to this.

And again, you're focusing only on album sales, when we know clearly that younger demos have shifted to buying starkly to the singles side.

Lol!


The industry has ruined pop music by churning out 'clones' from shows like X factor and pop idol, I mean, the artists/groups I listen to didn't come off these types of shows and they were more 'individual' and had something to say, pop stars today seem insipid in comparison.

Does it really matter whether I agree with you or not?

Why is this so important?

I mean, if what you say is correct, what can we do about it?

What could we have done earlier to stop the situation occurring?

Should we have stopped listening to such as Madonna,PSB or Depeche Mode when they were 40 in the hope they would retire and give some youngster a chance, just so it would sow the seeds of ideas into young people's heads?

And how were we to know that our enjoyment of our favourite songs would bollocks it up for young people?

Up until the late 1980s the music business was run by musicians for musicians, those at the top more often than not had a career in music as a performer before moving on to the management side, so if someone like David Gilmore had heard and recommended an potentially talented 15 year old girl those running the record labels knew that talent needed to be given time to develop before delivering long-term, sustained, success.

Since the late 1980s the music industry has been run by accountants, who have no interest in music but are only interested in profit and loss, and the profit has to be instant. Therefore long-term artist development has been thrown out of the window and it is all about bland, artists who will deliver quick returns on the record labels investment. Anyone who doesn't deliver the expected returns is simply dropped and the next identikit singer-songwriter or boy/girl band takes their place.

Plus, it must be remembered, from the 1950s to the 1990s kids could dress and experiment with colthes, etc, today kids are obsessed with mass-produced corporate branded, sorry I mean designer, logos and conformity is now the norm. Walk along any high street and you will see what I mean, everyone under 25 dresses the same. To dress differently singles you out as a target for bullies, so everyone "conforms", the herd mentality of safety in numbers.

really? if ive upset anyone then they shouldnt take things so personally... it isnt personal, its just a topic for conversation and actually its worked quite well!


...but in the absence of a survey, wouldnt record sales from both singles and albums be a fair guide?


well done, youve identified the problem... now who caused it? why is the music industry 'insipid'?...


nope... not at all, i was just trying to clarify which bit you dont agree with me on... your supposed (?) view of my thoughts based on the headder question, or what i really think?


which bit of what i said?... remember my position ISNT that i think oldies have ruined pop music, its only one part of a more complex issue.

we can do nothing about it.... only the youth of the day can create something fresh, something of their own, their own identity.


interesting question..... i reckon the only way to have stopped it occurring was to not accept watermans hit factory process, one thats become the norm in mainstream. until the late 80's is was frowned upon, looked down on, to be manufactured. pop music was real enough, created by musicians (ok of varying degrees of competence).

in the mid-late 80's there was a void opening up, where older people/older young people, got into house, rock (in all its forms) or hip hop. im suggesting that watermans lot saw a market for a new generation of young people (who didnt give a flying fcuk about musicianship or more adult themed indie/rock etc music) and the validation of manufactured music was born. businesswise....a master stroke... but since watermans mob commercialised pop as a commodity successfully, others followed and pop was never the same again. so 'old men HAVE ruined pop!


absolutely not... ive always listened to wtf i want to.... why shouldnt everybody else?

but there is a price to pay...


... because by doing that, there no longer a generation gap between adults and 'da kidz' . so what was an area for the youth of the day to indulge and express themselves both through music and fashion, no longer exists. remember, it wasnt the adults who created all the musical styles plus associated fashions that we have had in the uk since the 50's. id suggest theres a link between the rise of the number of older people liking pop and the decline of new styles in music and fashion.

but as ive said, its more complex then just that.


excellent post sir!

you almost sound as if youre adding weight to my premise regarding old people ruining music!

My answer to all this remains the same: 'because the internet.' It's fragmented music consumption and the demos most responsible for creating scenes are also now the least likely to buy music, so chart positions of burgeoning sounds follow accordingly. Not really old people's fault.

A music historian in 20-30 years' time will have an interesting task making sense of today's undergound scenes because the narratives we enjoyed even a decade ago a far more obscure now. The internet is overflowing with hundreds of thousands of artists.

Music industry accountants can be young too you know

As a music fan, I love that. I can't go a single day without unearthing a new favourite artist or band. Sure there is a lot of dross and a lot of it isn't terribly pioneering (how many metal bands out there are modeled on Sabbath? ) but they play good music well and that is what matters.

its a simple case of ability to be originally creative and then able to write it down, that's what so many of the young fail to comprehend

Is that not the truth.

Correct. No sensible interpretation of the evolution of the music industry would fail to take into account the huge influence the internet has had.

This in spades.

The dead hand of accountants is writ large in todays music scene sadly,I'm fact at an awards ceremony the other week the "Young Stars" turned out in dinner jackets.

I say this to the herd mentality Baa.

I shall be gigging Thursday "Black Star Riders" and "Europe"

They went down well in Belfast a couple weeks ago

Good.

Seeing them at the UEA Norwich nice smallish venue.

Bring it on.

true.... but i dont think its solely the reason why theres apparently a lack of new styles and fashion...and as ive already posted, id have thought it would have made it easier for a new movement to gain momentum.

would the great genres of the past have been created if there was the internet?... hell sure!

This is your assumption based on your lack of knowledge of modern music/fashion (which you've already admitted to).

However, putting that to one side, i'm not saying that the net is solely responsible for anything either. It's just a huge overlook on your part not to mention it in your original argument, as it has been hugely significant. It's a case of Occam's Razor this one, i think.

If you want to understand modern trends in music/fashion, or simply the modern world in general, you have to at least attempt to view things from a modern perspective. The internet is central to this issue.

Knowledge of it is irrelevant. You didnt need any knowlege or interest in fashion or music 'back in the day' to see something was going on.

Many on this thread agree that modern music is sadly lacking. So whilzt it might be an assumption, it appears to be pretty safe.

I have no beef with the impact of the internet on modern music or fashion.