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The ‘FM death watch' thread... |
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#76 |
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The translation says Quote:
Referral The outcome is not clear. Different actors make separate assessments of certain key technical aspects. For the government's assessment, it has been important that there is a clear and broad support among the referral bodies to take a decision on conditions for one of our key media channels. Such a wide and clearly not supported. So it does not mean DAB+ in band 3 will be closed and handed over to DTT so 700Mhz can be cleared as some in Sweden want.In light of referral outcome is the government's conclusion therefore is not currently proceed with a transition to DAB +. Such a transition is associated with excessive uncertainty, particularly with regard to radio's role in the Swedish emergency management. The government's view is that our present radio solution, ie FM network complemented by radio, nor is vitiated by such defects that a move is justified. As with many political decisions, especially in areas where the technology is under constant development, there may be reason to later reconsider the question of the digitization of terrestrial network for radio broadcasts. The Government will follow developments in Norway, among other. There, among other things because of a larger renovation needs than Sweden of the FM network, in January 2017 the FM network to start blacked out in favor of DAB + broadcasts. Not least, the government will consider how Norway manages defense and security aspects of the transition. Germany has announced this week it has auctioned 700Mhz without the need to move DTT to band 3, http://www.a516digital.com/2015/06/g...ion-of-tv.html so it is possible that current DAB/DAB+ radio transmissions in band 3 12A-13A might stay in Sweden (but maybe not rolled out further) but looks like the commercial radio groups will able to rollout a new national mux using thier own funds. http://wohnort.org/dab/sweden.html Quote:
SBS Discovery 1 As the translation says the Swedish Government will see how things go in Norway in 2017 and review the situation.
DAB+ Band III Block 12D: 229.072 MHz Operator: SBS Sites: On-Air: December 2015 Mix Megapol 128 kbit/s DAB+ NRJ 128 kbit/s DAB+ Radio 107.5 128 kbit/s DAB+ Rockklassiker 128 kbit/s DAB+ The Voice 128 kbit/s DAB+ Vinyl 107 128 kbit/s DAB+ Source: PA, 12.01.2015 |
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#77 |
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English article on Sweden's decision.
http://www.radiointelligence.com/swe...digital-radio/ |
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#78 |
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Quote:
English article on Sweden's decision.
http://www.radiointelligence.com/swe...digital-radio/ Quote:
"...The culture minister also points to concerns from the Swedish defence, which uses some of the DAB frequencies, and that there are some reports that the planned DAB networks wouldn’t have the same coverage area as the current FM networks..."
Really? Where's that mentioned in the minister's statement in the Dagblad? The closest is this paragraphQuote:
...En av de mest allvarliga invändningarna gäller hur en övergång skulle påverka totalförsvaret och Sveriges katastrofberedskap, inte minst möjligheten att vid en kritisk samhällsfarlig händelse kommunicera så kallat VMA (Viktigt meddelande till allmänheten). Försvarsmakten, Försvarets radioanstalt och Myndigheten för samhällsskydd och beredskap lyfter fram just risken för att en övergång påverkar såväl VMA som andra delar av totalförsvaret på ett negativt och kostsamt sätt...
Which just mentions VMA and the 'high cost' in general terms. This I take to mean how the regional Disaster Recovery agencies would break into a national network, bearing in mind how regionalised the 'national' FM broadcasters in Sweden are.This ministerial statement has been coming for over a week now, since the Miljöparti's conference where it was reported that Niklas Malmberg the MP's culture spokesperson had said that PTS had told him that there was room in the FM band for more commercial channels, thereby voiding the commercial sector's general argument for a move to Band III/DAB+: Quote:
...Kritiken har delvis varit mycket skarp mot införande av DAB+ från flera tunga remissinstanser. Dessutom säger Nicklas Malmberg att PTS, post och telestyrelsen, har framhållit att det finns möjligheter att få in fler kanaler i det existerande FM-nätet för privatradion...
The main effect isn't necessarily that the expansion of DAB+ has been halted, rather that (given PTS issues adequate frequencies) SR and the commercial sector will have to pay for any further rollout of DAB+ while also paying for transmission on the legacy FM network.Being as generous as possible, the combined Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish Book of Naval Victories is not a thick volume*; the anti-DAB brigade should hardly be putting out the bunting to celebrate the decision of a few million folk at the outer edges of Europe to turn their back (for the moment, one hopes) on the advance of radio technology. * the Vikings fought on land, not at sea |
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#79 |
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Quote:
This ministerial statement has been coming for over a week now, since the Miljöparti's conference where it was reported that Niklas Malmberg the MP's culture spokesperson had said that PTS had told him that there was room in the FM band for more commercial channels, thereby voiding the commercial sector's general argument for a move to Band III/DAB+:
http://www.radiointelligence.com/swe...digital-radio/ Quote:
“It’s regrettable for the Swedish radio audience that the expansion of digital radio has been postponed. The FM band is full and there will be a need for a terrestrial broadcasting network for a long time forward. Internet-based IP radio will be important, but will never replace a terrestrial network” says Cilla Benkö, the director-general of Sweden’s public radio broadcaster Sveriges Radio
The commercial groups Bauer (SBS) and MTG have not yet responded and have not confirmed what will happen to their plans to expand their stations on the Swedish experimental DAB+ mux, rather than FM, assuming the spare FM frequencies are actually available and may be only short lived as DAB+ will be lower transmission cost?From http://www.worlddab.org/country-information/sweden only 60,000 DAB sets have been sold in Sweden, will shops only stock FM (perhaps internet) radio sets and new cars have FM only, or will they have FM/DAB (perhaps internet) assuming there could eventually be a radio DSO and extra DAB+ stations are available in some places Bauer (SBS) and MTG are both committed with the Norway national radio DSO in 2017 so will want to ensure DAB+ might rollout in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries if the Norway DSO is a success. Bauer are also committed to D2 and a radio DSO in the UK, even though date has been set. |
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#80 |
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SBS (now owned by Bauer) have now made a statement which seems to indicate they will press ahead with DAB+ and internet to eventually replace national FM in Sweden. (http://radionytt.se) Quote:
"It is regrettable that the digitalization of radio in Sweden is further delayed, but the radio industry will continue to work to straighten out the questions that the Minister of Culture refers to" says Staffan Rosell, who is president of the country's largest commercial radio company SBS Discovery Radio.
The BBC has decided to close it's FM relay in Abu Dhabi due to costs.http://radiotoday.co.uk/2015/06/bbc-...-in-abu-dhabi/ |
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#81 |
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Quote:
SBS (now owned by Bauer) have now made a statement which seems to indicate they will press ahead with DAB+ and internet to eventually replace national FM in Sweden. (http://radionytt.se)
Quote:
Men nu kräver MTG Radios konkurrent SBS Discovery Radio ett klargörande från kulturministern om hur regeringen ska agera i frågan. Om regeringen följer Miljöpartiets kongressbeslut skulle det innebära en oväntad och abrupt förändring av den politik som hittills förts, menar man. Translation: ...but now SBS Discovery, MTG's commercial competitor, is calling for an unambiguous statement from the Minister for Culture on what course the government will now steer. SBS's position is that, if the government carries through a decision taken by the Green Party's conference meeting, this would represent an abrupt u-turn on previous policy."Kulturminister Alice Bah Kuhnke måste omedelbart klargöra om digitaliseringen av radion ska avbrytas. Som kommersiellt företag måste vi kunna förvänta oss att staten följer en långsiktig och konsekvent linje i den här typen av infrastrukturfrågor. Att som Miljöpartiet föreslår avbryta digitaliseringen av radion skulle kasta oss tio år tillbaka i tiden med allvarliga konsekvenser för den privata radion. Men de största förlorarna i sammanhanget skulle vara de svenska radiolyssnarna. Med en fullt genomförd övergång till digitalradio skulle lyssnarna kunna erbjudas ett stort antal nya kanaler och ett väsentligt större programutbud i hela landet", skriver Staffan Rosell, vd för SBS Discovery Radio, i en kommentar. Staffan Rosell, MD of SBS Discovery Radio wrote: "We now need a clear and unambiguous statement from Culture Minister Alice Bah Kuhnke about whether radio's upgrade to digital is now completely cancelled. As a commercial concern, we expect government to give direction in such questions of infrastructure that are both far-sighted and meaningful. For the Green Party to signal the end of the radio digitisation project risks setting us [presumably the radio industry] back ten years, with grave consequences for private radio. However the greatest losers in the whole affair are the Swedish radio listeners. With a full transition to digital radio, listeners could be offered a plethora of new channels and much larger country-wide choice of programming. I think that his main problem is a conference decision by show of hands of one of the coalition partners, that all of a sudden becomes government policy affecting tens of millions of potential listeners and hundreds of millions of Kronor in investment that will now not take place (or at least not as quickly as was previously hoped). |
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#82 |
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Quote:
Couldn't find anything about a statement on that website,
I think that his main problem is a conference decision by show of hands of one of the coalition partners, that all of a sudden becomes government policy affecting tens of millions of potential listeners and hundreds of millions of Kronor in investment that will now not take place (or at least not as quickly as was previously hoped). Comparing Norway http://www.worlddab.org/country-information/norway Quote:
Population: 5.1 million with SwedenPopulation coverage: 99.5% Services: 22 DAB Line-fit automotive sales (cumulative): 600,000 devices Total Sales (cumulative): 2,044,000 devices Penetration by household: 58% http://www.worlddab.org/country-information/sweden Quote:
Population: 9.1 million Like in the UK the Norwegian government and the main radio stations have been consistant in support for DAB radio with extra services and shop promotions so many older FM only sets have already been replaced by DAB (or internet) sets and "penetration by household" is high.Population coverage: 35% Services: 10 DAB, 16 DAB+, 1 Data Total Sales (cumulative): 60,000 devices But in Sweden different Governments have given different levels of support, so the sales of DAB sets has been low and "penetration by household" figure is low giving the Green party reason to see DAB stopped with the large number of FM only sets to be scrapped, even though DAB+ transmission is more power and cost efficient than FM. The previous Swedish government if still in power would have finally started the DAB+ rollout , but with the Minister's mention of seeing how the Norway radio DSO goes, gives hope to the SBS, MTG and SR bosses that the current Swedish DAB transmissions and DAB+ set sales will continue alongside FM, rather than halted, and there is time to change details in the final full statement to Government which has yet to issued? |
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#83 |
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Quote:
On what basis are you claiming that this will "probably" happen? The translated article is at this link and includes:
"Herbert Visser, director of 100% NL and Radio 10, thinks the claim Minister Kamp opposite Radio.NL. "It has become clear that this afternoon the Minister in favor of auctioning. However, he has not said he will actually go up for auction. Minister Kamp said that next year he will make a decision about it. " https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...-text=&act=url DAB+ is making very slow progress despite the campaign if you read the management summary, a document I found thanks to another licence holder Ruud Pooze posting on another forum. The Netherlands has always had a large amount of listening through cable, giving a wider choice of stations than FM, and now a much higher, and increasing use of internet. It's also flat so DAB+ hasn't got the advantage of better coverage using fewer transmitters than it has in Switzerland and Norway, which seem to be the most advanced in terms of switching off FM for many stations. In fact Norway has confirmed a date for switch off for stations other than local today. http://radiotoday.co.uk/2015/04/norw...-in-two-years/ http://www.wohnort.org/dab/netherlands.html but if the West mux launches later this year, means most of the Netherlands now has 3 muxes and several DAB+ stations, and an update http://www.telecompaper.com/news/dut...years--1089611 Quote:
Minister Kamp wrote that the switch from FM to DAB + in the Netherlands is taking longer than expected, in comparison with other countries. And that is why it is not, according to him, appropriate to already determine an end date for FM. It is conceivable this is the last time FM frequencies are issued. Shutting down FM will be discussed with market parties as part of this coming auction round but all really depends on how quickly DAB+ can be adopted.
But as you say with a large amount of cable listening promoting DAB+ will be a struggle.
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#84 |
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Also getting car makers to have DAB in all new cars in Europe as standard will be critical. But seems a way off at the moment.
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#85 |
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It's surprising that more mobe manufacturers don't incorporate a DAB+ radio, even as a paid-for OTA upgrade. The average smartphone nowadays has a quad core or greater, running at a gig or so and sitting around doing nothing most of the time. Pretty much everything that isn't a feature phone nowadays has bluetooth, and there's a bluetooth cassette adapter for older barges like Vectorsum's. Kit like this, combined with DAB+ in bluetooth-capable phones, would go a long way to solving the in-vehicle digital chicken-and-egg.
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#86 |
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Reading the postings regarding DAB i am astounded that no one now mentions audio quality. Possibly because in many instances FM sounds much better.
many years ago i had the pleasure of hearing DAB broadcasts in Copenhagen they used full bandwith and the difference was very noticable. in the UK greed has taken over and we find audio quality at a lower standard than on FM. if DAB here was to the standard i heatd in Denmark , then i would be very much in favour .
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#87 |
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Quote:
Reading the postings regarding DAB i am astounded that no one now mentions audio quality.
Quote:
The Norwegian programmes on the national FM network, P1, P2, P3 are being broadcast at 192kpbs DAB, FM equivalence, most of the time.
http://wohnort.org/dab/norway.html Now Bauer are involved they will probably want to ensure success in 2017 so other countries will follow. Hopefully they will keep Radio Norge a good bit rate and good audio quality. Denmark might be the next country after Norway in 2019 for the next radio DSO, but the UK, like many other countries, has not confirmed any DSO date. Some are aiming for 2014 and the Netherlands might be 2017, now existing stations will now not be auctioned. In the UK Bauer has kept City 1 stations at 128k stereo, but reduced a lot of stations to 80k mono. However some stations like Abs 80 get high listening figures at 80k mono which they say is fine for most mono DAB sets, but in the D2 bid say these will move to DAB+ when the time is right. |
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#88 |
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Quote:
Some are aiming for 2014
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#89 |
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Quote:
I suspect they'll miss it...
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#90 |
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Quote:
Meant 2024 but Netherlands seem to be targetting 2027.
Take up of DAB+ has been slow in the Netherlands, both the Minister and the MP's who voted against auctioning FM licences saw no need to set a date for FM switch off. Latest update in the Telekom paper. http://www.telecompaper.com/news/mps...ended--1090619 Denmark postponed their switch off date earlier this year due to slower than expected take up http://www.radiomagonline.com/around...essation/36498 |
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#91 |
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Quote:
Reading the postings regarding DAB i am astounded that no one now mentions audio quality.
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#92 |
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Quote:
Meant 2024 but Netherlands seem to be targetting 2027.
Now those licenses might be running till 2027 I expect them to uncouple the FM switch off from the license length. The appetite for FM is not that big any more among the big broadcasters (the last remaining FM slot had been left vacant for years) so 2027 seems out of the question. They might even decide, if they uncouple anyway, they might as well do it sooner. Don't forget that listening to FM had already dropped to 47% when last measured. |
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#93 |
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Quote:
That will be because this is a thread about FM, not a thread about DAB. There are plenty of threads about DAB which debate the pros and cons of DAB at length.
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#94 |
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But as this thread is about FM switch-off, it is assumed that the plan is for DAB to replace FM for those stations that have switched over, so in that context it a relevant subject for discussion, as DAB is what listeners will be expected to use after that time.
Whether the listeners are abandoning FM for internet, DAB, satellite, cable etc. is irrelevant. It's how many people still listen to FM that governments and radio stations are interested in. |
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#95 |
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Why do you think that? There are a number of alternatives to FM that listeners seem to prefer and DAB is just one of them. Most countries considering a DSO (including Norway, Sweden and the UK) don't look at DAB usage to decide when to switch off, they look at FM usage. And that makes perfect sense.
Whether the listeners are abandoning FM for internet, DAB, satellite, cable etc. is irrelevant. It's how many people still listen to FM that governments and radio stations are interested in. |
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#96 |
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Well clearly the assumption is that DAB would be the primary form of listening after a switchover, otherwise why else would so much money have been poured into it over the last 15-20 years? It would have been a huge waste of money and resources if eventually other forms of listening leapfrogged DAB, would it not?
http://www.rajar.co.uk/content.php?p..._market_trends Although DAB use in the UK does not yet match FM and AM's 61% use, Rajar does not seem to release separate FM and AM figures, it is growing from 23.7% in 2014 to 25.9% in 2015. With more car use, D2 with Virgin and if the Moyle's XFM "saviour of digital" rumours are correct DAB share will further grow. The digital radio via TV figures have declined from 5 to 4.8%, maybe more use of DAB and perhaps phone and tablets? The UK does not have the same level of cable listening in Holland and in the UK cable to radio set links via FM have stopped. Rajar shows 6.8% internet share, but may not include stations like Beats 1, which has a large British content. Potential internet listening increases could also take some listeners away from UK FM stations? But a FM switch off in the UK is still distant with no date (but some AM may be switched off soon to reduce the 61% analogue figures nearer to the 47% in the Netherlands Digmorris mentioned). The proposed DSO in Norway with just 5 FM stations is much lower risk as DAB and other platform use is higher, so the Norwegians have a good chance of making it work. |
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#97 |
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Well clearly the assumption is that DAB would be the primary form of listening after a switchover, otherwise why else would so much money have been poured into it over the last 15-20 years? It would have been a huge waste of money and resources if eventually other forms of listening leapfrogged DAB, would it not?
All of these projects relied on silicon IPR that was developed or contributed under EUREKA147 and it's highly doubtful that the follow-on projects would have succeeded without the already established, or very strongly indicated, economies of scale in baseband VLSI that flowed from the development of DAB. So if there's been any "huge waste of resources" it's been on the implementation side, courtesy of broadcasters and their agents, in making a poor show of the networks that support DAB. Accepting that wired, static streaming is sorted, it's difficult to see what other forms of broadcasting would "leapfrog" DAB/+ in the mobile context. In the absence of a satellite-delivered segment, the only other viable technology is streaming over the cellular networks. Back in the early noughties, mobile network evolution was envisaged as 'islands' of 3G in a 'sea' of 2G. To date the deployment of 4G/LTE in developed markets has pretty much mirrored the extent of 3G rollout, i.e. islands, with the laudable exception of Germany. So a streaming session, if it were to carry on for any appreciable distance outside a built-up area, would eventually have to drop down to 2G with obvious consequences for all but the lowest bit-rate services. So no, cellular streaming isn't viable for any but the lucky few whose travel-to-work takes place entirely within 3G/4G coverage. In short, no other technology can do what a correctly implemented DAB/+ network can do. On the flip-side, no other available technology can do what FM can either, which is to provide islands of coverage for standalone, local stations. The more the arguments rage on here and elsewhere about its shutdown, the more the politicos will see a chance to make a quick buck by flogging off some of Band II to the Whitespace Brigade. So it's perhaps in the interests of all concerned to temper the rhetoric. |
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#98 |
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On the flip-side, no other available technology can do what FM can either, which is to provide islands of coverage for standalone, local stations. The more the arguments rage on here and elsewhere about its shutdown, the more the politicos will see a chance to make a quick buck by flogging off some of Band II to the Whitespace Brigade. So it's perhaps in the interests of all concerned to temper the rhetoric.
Not sure how viable whitespace data is, the current tests are in the UHF band to give coverage where areas are limited to copper. If national FM is cleared from say 88 to 100 this could help data in several rural areas (the range will be better the UHF) and co exist sharing frequencies with some local FM stations. Might be a possibity in Norway if the national DSO works in 2017. |
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#99 |
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Due to the high battery consumption, almost no-one bothers with battery powered DAB radios. Even if they do, perhaps for wearable DAB radio, battery life will be 4 hours.
I would wager that only 2% of DAB radio owners have something like the Pure power packs. So during emergencies with power outages, in the future there will be no way of getting local/national info/news. Or any entertainment for that matter, while waiting for mains power to return. Same thing applies to campers, picnickers, garden users. Compare that with the household of the 80s/90s when several battery radios would be around with 20-50 hours battery life expectancy. Bit of a mess, this replace-FM-with-DAB thing really. |
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#100 |
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Modern DAB radios will pretty much match modern FM radios for battery life nowadays.
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