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The ‘FM death watch' thread...


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Old 21-05-2016, 12:00
DigMorris
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Don't forget, for the whole abandoning FM discussion (whether it's an individual station leaving FM because it's lost its economic viability for them or any industry-wide concerted action) it doesn't matter what people are leaving FM for.

They could switch to satellite, DAB/DAB+, FreeView, online, two cans on a string or who knows which other technology and it has no bearing on the discussion. All that matters is that these people have stopped listening to FM and so FM becomes less valuable as a distribution technology.

That is also why the DSO criteria talk about "digital radio" and not DAB. If everyone were to abandon DAB tomorrow and switch en masse to online radio the debate remains the same since they've stopped listening to FM.
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Old 21-05-2016, 15:06
Vectorsum
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It's not a discussion about "abandoning FM", whatever the thread title may say. Instead it's musings out loud about network radio's migration to DAB or more likely DAB+ by the time we get to it, leaving FM for locals.

Growing up and acquiring a love for radio of all sorts in the late 70s and early 80s, 1996 and the full availability of all 20 MHz of Band II for WBFM broadcasting seemed aaaaaaages away. In the 20 years since other users cleared it, Band II has been a faithful and ever-improving servant to the radio broadcaster and really the last thing we should be doing is giving gubbermint any indication that it's now not needed.

Sure, minimux DAB may eventually come to rule the roost but getting one of those up and running involves mastery of the ball-ache of putting together a mux and herding the cats onto it. So there's still a huge cost, except in the time and hassle of managing the thing, rather than the up-front hit in the wallet of a couple of Raspberry Pis and a laptop.

Conversely, under a grand buys you all the kit you need for a local FM service, add a spare laptop and some free mixing software and you're a broadcaster. So what should actually be happening at the same time is a campaign to raise this awareness with DCMS and Ofcom, and maybe also get it mentioned more often in emails to radio manufacturers and online fora that there's absolutely no technical reason why an FM/DAB+ set can't have a unified program guide of all services, whether FM community/local or DAB+ national.
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Old 21-05-2016, 15:06
buglawton
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Parts of Hertfordshire have issues with FM due to the hills. There are parts where you can get the BBC Nationals from Wrotham, Crystal Palace, Oxford & Bow Brickhall. All receivable but none good enough for consistent interference free reception for more than a few seconds.
Are you sure? An RDS car radio will switch seamlessly to get the strongest signal, I've never encountered a dead spot in-car in Herts.
In fact it's the sheer success of FM RDS in the UK (we have exceptionally large national networks) that makes DAB slow to adopt in cars.
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Old 21-05-2016, 16:34
kev
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Are you sure? An RDS car radio will switch seamlessly to get the strongest signal, I've never encountered a dead spot in-car in Herts.
In fact it's the sheer success of FM RDS in the UK (we have exceptionally large national networks) that makes DAB slow to adopt in cars.
If Hertfordshire is anything like Nottingham the FM side of the radio will be saying "> seek >" more often than the station name.... This would also be the same RDS that thinks it was perfectly acceptable to retune from a hissy Kerrang! 105 to Century 106 and from there to Heart WM, and the same RDS that constantly retunes from The Bee to Wave 96.5 in my mums car in Preston

I still find it funny every time I'm being given a lift in a mates car or in a minicab and Gem 106 descends into mush as we approach their studios and of course FM has no alternative to tune to. DAB on the other hand is rock solid though-out the city. Mind you the poor FM reception round here is probably one of the factors leading Nottingham to have less than 50% analogue listening already.
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Old 21-05-2016, 22:56
hanssolo
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So what should actually be happening at the same time is a campaign to raise this awareness with DCMS and Ofcom, and maybe also get it mentioned more often in emails to radio manufacturers and online fora that there's absolutely no technical reason why an FM/DAB+ set can't have a unified program guide of all services, whether FM community/local or DAB+ national.
Was demonstrated a few years ago and was to be in the latest chip but still no combined list.
http://www.frontier-silicon.com/new-...lobal-markets#.
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Old 27-09-2016, 12:42
hanssolo
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DSO of 5 national Norwegian stations now atarting in 4 months time
https://www.srgd.ch/de/aktuelles/201...-ukw-ausstieg/
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Old 28-09-2016, 10:33
swb1964
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. Mind you the poor FM reception round here is probably one of the factors leading Nottingham to have less than 50% analogue listening already.
Hiya, I live in Derby and often work in Nottingham and it's definitely a blackspot on a lot of FM stations.

But how do you know Nottingham is on less than 50% analogue listening? Are there figures given by town?
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Old 28-09-2016, 10:51
kev
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Hiya, I live in Derby and often work in Nottingham and it's definitely a blackspot on a lot of FM stations.

But how do you know Nottingham is on less than 50% analogue listening? Are there figures given by town?
http://radiotoday.co.uk/2015/11/nott...al-radio-area/

In this case "Nottingham" = primary coverage area of the Nottingham(shire) multiplex (i.e. central and south Nottinghamshire).


As an aside, giving figures for the city itself is plagued with difficulties....

The City of Nottingham is much smaller than most people think - ie. it excludes West Bridgford, Beeston, Gedling, Arnold, Chilwell, Hucknall, Carlton, and Long Eaton

Yet the Nottingham Urban area extends to the west of the eastern edge of Derby (up in Ripley) and well into Derbyshire

Population 2011 Census
City of Nottingham : 266,988
Nottingham Urban Area : 729,977
Nottinghamshire : 1,015,498
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Old 28-09-2016, 12:10
swb1964
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Off topic, but I think Derby and Nottingham cities are actually similar size. I think it's the size of the bigger urban area that makes Nottingham the regional hub.

Personally I would advocate building along the A52 corridor to make a single city to rival places like Sheffield and Newcastle.

But like I say, off topic.
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Old 30-09-2016, 02:44
Chris_Hulse1
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DAB reception is still patchy,and some years away from matching FM,cars are still being made without DAB as standard,and older ones on the road are unlikely to have their analogue sets replaced due to cost,i can't see a switch off for FM much before 2021.
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Old 30-09-2016, 06:38
hanssolo
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i can't see a switch off for FM much before 2021.
Maybe for the UK, but (as the first op in the thread by DigMorris pointed out) in Norway. unless there is a last minute change, will be 2017.
https://www.srgd.ch/de/aktuelles/201...-ukw-ausstieg/
Interview with Marius Lien Lille director of the Norwegian public radio (google translate)
We start in the north in January 2017 and work our way south. In December 2017, the last region is switched off. This approach is designed to enable all time to get a retrofit kit for the car. In addition to the marketing activities run by us and the private radio stations with information campaigns, we build a call centre and train the employees. It is a very intense time.
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Old 22-10-2016, 10:57
tghe-retford
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A DAB myths website has been set-up in Norway as switchover approaches to attempt to answer a lot of the questions and concerns raised about DAB:

http://dabmytene.no/ (via Google Translate)

Many of these questions and concerns will sound very familiar:

"DAB is expensive"
"DAB has poor sound"
"DAB has poor coverage"
"We do not need DAB when we have the Internet"
"DAB means poorer readiness for emergencies"
"DAB+ is out, we'll soon have DAB++! Why should I invest in a soon to be obsolete technology?"
"Almost no new cars have DAB"
"Nobody uses DAB - everyone listens to FM and AM"

I can only imagine Digitalradio Norway when wanting criticisms of DAB for their mythbusting website, went to the Digital Spy Forums for inspiration.
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Old 22-10-2016, 11:49
Gerry1
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A DAB myths website has been set-up in Norway as switchover approaches to attempt to answer a lot of the questions and concerns raised about DAB
That site's a bit desperate and dodgy, isn't it? Lots of omissions, half truths and exaggerations.

In general, its technique is to take an obviously extreme view ('Nobody buys DAB') and then say 'Ah, it's not really quite as bad as that' and hope people are fooled into thinking that everything is rosy. For example, they admit that 30% of households still don't have even one DAB radio, but I bet that 99.9% have at least one FM radio with the vast majority having at least two or more.

They claim that DAB+ adaptors can be used, but don't say that they're only practical for car radios. And so on and so on... very little stands up to close scrutiny.
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Old 22-10-2016, 12:09
swb1964
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Interesting that DAB has been made to go 50 km off shore.

Obviously no where near as far as longwave goes, but probably enough for most smaller boats ( larger boats are already on Navtex)
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Old 22-10-2016, 15:02
hanssolo
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That site's a bit desperate and dodgy, isn't it? Lots of omissions, half truths and exaggerations.

In general, its technique is to take an obviously extreme view ('Nobody buys DAB') and then say 'Ah, it's not really quite as bad as that' and hope people are fooled into thinking that everything is rosy. For example, they admit that 30% of households still don't have even one DAB radio, but I bet that 99.9% have at least one FM radio with the vast majority having at least two or more.

They claim that DAB+ adaptors can be used, but don't say that they're only practical for car radios. And so on and so on... very little stands up to close scrutiny.
Thats not true as there are plenty of HiFi and old radio DAB+ adaptors like this http://www.powermaxx.no/dab--og-fm-mottaker-adapter on sale in Norway.
Also many of the 30% of homes without DAB+ will still be able to able to get the national stations on internet radio if they dont buy a DAB+ set before national FM is switched off.

A lot of people will be watching how the national FM switchoff goes. The head of Bauer in Norway now thinks the switchoff for it's Radio Norway station might perhaps be too soon, but looks like Bauer will still switch off FM in 2017.
http://www.dn.no/etterBors/2016/09/1...-drlig-mot-nrk
Lasse Kokvik in Radio Norway is not opposed to digitize radio but unsure if it is right to extinguish FM broadcasts in record time
Sadly the rest of what he says is behind a paywall.
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Old 22-10-2016, 15:18
Gerry1
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Thats not true as there are plenty of HiFi and old radio DAB+ adaptors like this http://www.powermaxx.no/dab--og-fm-mottaker-adapter on sale in Norway.
Yeah, right. At a whopping £79 it would be cheaper to buy a new DAB+ radio instead. And you're tied to a mains outlet, so it's not as go-anywhere as a portable radio.
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Old 23-10-2016, 13:26
MikeBr
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For example, they admit that 30% of households still don't have even one DAB radio, but I bet that 99.9% have at least one FM radio with the vast majority having at least two or more .
Doubt it as radio's 2015 daily reach in Norway was only 69% of the population.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...day-in-norway/
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Old 23-10-2016, 23:38
wns_195
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A DAB myths website has been set-up in Norway as switchover approaches to attempt to answer a lot of the questions and concerns raised about DAB:

http://dabmytene.no/ (via Google Translate)

Many of these questions and concerns will sound very familiar:

"DAB is expensive"
"DAB has poor sound"
"DAB has poor coverage"
"We do not need DAB when we have the Internet"
"DAB means poorer readiness for emergencies"[/quote]


This is a good point. In an emergency, if people were required to obey instructions instantly and every second mattered, the delay could have fatal consequences. After analogue transmitters are turned off, nothing will be broadcast live.
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Old 24-10-2016, 08:21
hanssolo
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A DAB myths website has been set-up in Norway as switchover approaches to attempt to answer a lot of the questions and concerns raised about DAB:

http://dabmytene.no/ (via Google Translate)

Many of these questions and concerns will sound very familiar:

"DAB is expensive"
"DAB has poor sound"
"DAB has poor coverage"
"We do not need DAB when we have the Internet"
"DAB means poorer readiness for emergencies"


This is a good point. In an emergency, if people were required to obey instructions instantly and every second mattered, the delay could have fatal consequences. After analogue transmitters are turned off, nothing will be broadcast live.
The delay does not seem to be important for emergency announcements.
The Norwegians are saying digital is more resiliant than FM
Fact: DAB network has considerable emergency benefits over the FM network. The risk of failure of transmitters in extreme situations is greatly reduced compared to the FM network.
Then goes into further detail.
The UK government emergency advice is to listen to local radio and TV so does not matter if analogue or digital.
There was a report done as to what happens with a radio DSO
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cations_1_.doc
In this context the Radio Switchover proposals will replicate existing FM coverage and ensure a transition which protects consumers, therefore assuring an efficient transition and the widespread availability of radio services capable of having an active future role in communicating during local and national events.
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Old 24-10-2016, 12:55
Vectorsum
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Aren't disaster comms of the type being envisaged here usually provided by specialist branches of the military? I know that in Britain this task is handled by RAF mobile units. In times of emergency these trundle out, pull up the nearest manhole cover at their remote locations and connect what's left of the phone network into Skynet (the Brit military version, not Terminator...). It would make sense that these also provide local FM and DAB comms.

I would guess that the Norwegian armed services have similar contingency arrangements in place, with exact details not made public for obvious reasons. Hence the whole question of comms continuity should have no overlap with radio DSO.
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Old 24-10-2016, 13:00
buglawton
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Main issues in an emergency are:

Mostly, FM radios are still the only one in cars

No DAB radios built into mobile phones, FM ones are in most Android handsets

Still rather short battery life of DAB radios, e.g. 10 hours on 4xAA batteries vs say 30 on FM, on a newish DAB/FM radio that I have.
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Old 24-10-2016, 13:08
swb1964
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As far as the UK goes, I don't think anyone is proposing switching off FM entirely, at least not in the short to medium term. It's the bandwidth heavy national networks (BBC 1-4 and Classic FM) where we can get the most gain from DSO.

Local FM could continue for 20 years or more?
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Old 24-10-2016, 17:16
MikeBr
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Still rather short battery life of DAB radios, e.g. 10 hours on 4xAA batteries vs say 30 on FM, on a newish DAB/FM radio that I have.
See report already linked to

3.4.5 Finally, there have been concerned raised about the power consumption of digital radios compared to analogue equivalents means they are less effective in the event of emergencies; on the basis they will operate for a short period on battery power. The energy consumption of digital radios is being considered as part of Action 2.6 of the DRAP. However, we note that energy consumption of digital radios is already similar to analogue radios and improvements in technology are resulting in greater improvements in this area. The Government’s research into the energy consumption of digital radio can be found at: http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/8145.aspx
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Old 24-10-2016, 17:50
tghe-retford
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No DAB radios built into mobile phones
Besides the LG Stylus 2, nope. I do wonder why RTL2832U chips are not placed in phones as they are with dirt cheap DVB-T sticks. It should be easy and non-trivial to create a program with the headphone lead as the antenna to decode DAB and DAB+ signals.
FM ones are in most Android handsets
Not any more, at least not in the popular handsets.

Smartphone manufacturers would rather have consumers listen to radio via the Internet (paying for a data allowance to boot). Ain't going to be of much help in an emergency situation when the mobile phone networks are congested and the networks are commandeered for emergency communications.
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Old 24-10-2016, 18:37
swb1964
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My understanding is that quite a few flagship smartphones actually have disabled FM chips in them...
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