Hoping I never meet an owner who doesn't use a collar and lead, who knows what other pesky laws they way deem don't apply to them because they are above the law and better than me

There speaks the alpha male. I thought your illusion to leader of the pack was a turn of phrase. Next you'll be quoting Jan Fennel and eating crackers from the dog's bowl

It is rude if your dog greats nervous dogs or is given the opportunity to great them. Legal laws are down to bye laws in council areas but in general "A dog is considered ‘under control’ if it is on a lead held by someone able to control the dog. For example, a large dog would not be under control if its lead was held by a child who would be unable to restrain the dog if it strained against the lead.

It isn't necessary for dogs to be leashed at all times. However, dogs must be kept on a lead in designated pedestrian zones and on land where livestock is present. Councils have bye-laws to indicate areas where leashing is required, such as in public parks."

You are at risk of putting yourself and most importantly your dog in danger within the eyes of the law. If your dog has strayed, attacked another or worried livestock then you would have oblige by notices issued by a dog warden. And the notion that you never have doesn't mean you will never have occasion to.

My grandfather was much the same mind until his dog was killed by speeding car and he was unable to react quickly to save her. Had she been on a lead then there is every chance she would not have been harmed. You can be as over confident as you wish about your abilities but you can't predict others and in fairness to you dog, neither should you.

Not impressed.

Wow this thread is turning into something else!
I just wonder why anyone would be so set against a collar anyway. Is it seen as some sort of slur on ones ability to control the dog? Or maybe it's felt that the dog is traumatised by wearing one?
Aside from the legal side, no one (not even the most omnipotent of us ) can know what will happen while we are out and the best trained dog can react to in an unexpected way to something unexpected.

I hope I never meet somebody who mindlessly follows rules simply because they are rules, who knows what other injustices they will be prepared to endure simply because they don't have the brains to think for themselves.

I'm certainly not "dead set" against collars.
I was simply responding to the assertion that "every" dog needs to be man-handled by the collar at some point.
That is clearly false.

You realise that there are people who would use that sort of admission to support their claims that dogs can never be trusted, right?

Laws are not randomly thought out rules. I am legal at all times, especially with my dogs they cannot read so cannot decide whether to obey the law or not so I have to be responsible and make that decision for them. They didn't used to wear collars at home until my MILs house burned down and we were faced with trying to get hold of her terrified collarless Labradors to drag them to safety the firemen were fantastic but it put them at risk too not having a collar to hold on to.

My late mollie was nearly killed by a collarless dog I always thought if it had a collar the owner could have held it off with out having to physically wrestle it into submission.

And they would be right, I like to think mine would never harm anyone but you cannot know pain or fear or threat can make a dog do something completely out of character.

Ours wear harnesses outside as they are better for their necks than collars.

As a driver I hate seeing dogs off lead on pavements which is actually illegal. How am I supposed to know whether it's a dog that is perfectly trained so unlikely to run into the road or some dick who 'thinks' his dog is under control - until it sees a cat or something that spooks it across the road and runs in front of my car? So I slow down and drive with extra care so holding the traffic up. I think not having your dog on lead by a public highway is extremely irresponsible. No dog is 100% reliable, no matter how well trained they still have free will.

Si-Crewe, what if you dog was attacked by another one and ran off? With no collar if it was found injured how would anyone know whose it was? are your dogs microchipped? although that's not the answer. Ok its unlikely but what if you collapsed and needed help or medical attention, no one could take your dog home. I think not even having as much as a slip lead with you is quite frankly stupid.

2 of my 4 dogs are reactive to other dogs so are on lead and muzzled. I dread seeing off lead collarless dogs as so many run at us as the owners don't care. I never know whether they will stay with their owner or fly over to us - and I walk on a reclaimed pit so there's lots of space and we don't need to be near other dogs but I always wonder why other owners think it's ok for their dogs to run at us without being recalled and it is often the 'my dog doesn't need a collar or lead' people who think it's acceptable. My dogs aren't allowed to bother other people so why do they think it's acceptable to allow their to harass us?

I live 'off road' and in the country and am fortunate to be able to give my girl her freedom off the leash most of the time. But I wouldn't dream of not going out without a collar - plus a lead in readiness.
For one thing you can't know that you aren't going to meet an aggressive dog not as well trained as yours. A former dog was set on by another dog quite out of the blue. It needed two of us using the collar of each to separate them in the ensuing dog fight.
What on earth is your issue with having a collar? OK don't use it - just think of it as a fail safe. To go without is not only illegal but irresponsible.

Oops double negative - 'going out without a collar'
Ps I'm beginning to wonder if this argument is just a wind up...

Sadly I don't think it is, I see various dogs daily without collars, they argue witht he dog warden to no avail, if your dog is not wearing a collar and identity disc he removes them from the parks and takes them until it is decided whether they are allowed them back again sadly we never see those dogs back in the parks so I would say it unlikely they survive the encounter with the law. Even homeless here have their dogs wearing collars and on leads, they love their dogs too much to chance an encounter with the dog warden.

And they would be right, you can never completely and totally trust a dog 100%. No matter how well behaved, how much you love them, how much you say yours are bombproof with anything, you cannot say for sure your dog is completely trustable. No owner can, at the end of the day, it's an animal, originally come from a predatory wild animal and nobody can truly get into its mind or know what it's thinking, and it would be foolish and even potentially dangerous to think otherwise.

It is what causes a lot of the problems we have with dogs in society these days, people not understanding what they have taken on and believing their dog is better and different from all the other dogs in the world.... couldn't possibly be their dog causes a problem.

I totally trust my lab. Except where food, pigeons and cats are concerned! It is my responsibility to keep my much loved dog safe. I would never take him out without collar and always keep him on a lead on a public road. Not just for his safety, but because I cannot accept 100% he might not chase a cat etc. across the road - and if he were injured, how would the driver feel? Surely this is just common sense. I am lucky in as much as I only live 50 metres from the beach - and the moment we get to the cliff path he is off lead and running free and socialising with all the other dogs.
But I would never leave him off lead on road. I value him far too much.

I am so sorry to hear that about your dog, I have had a similar problem with our dog when we first got her from rescue and we have spent 6 months working with a qualified behaviourist on positive training techniques that have nothing to do with dominance or pack leader to get her to a safe place. It has helped us so much when the housekeeper of a cottage we were staying in came to see her with her blind dog off lead (who will attack any dog she senses ) and it went for mine. She asserted that she 'never usually has a lead as there aren't any dogs up this road' yet the cottage is dog friendly. By the time I'd let rip at her and she'd stopped shaking and getting tearful I think she realised how critical it was that dogs are under control and the implications of what happens when they are not. I'm not terribly proud of making someone cry but to have six months of expensive training and bravery by my dog was soul destroying.

I think you also make a great point which I have highlighted. You dread it. I do too. Dreading something carries down the lead which naturally puts the dogs on alert too. Thing is that as a community of dog owners I'd expect more mutual respect too. The dog that the arrogant off lead, no collar owner has right now may well be perfect in their eyes but the next dog they have might be reactive, nervous etc and they'll see life another way. We should all respect that dogs have imperfections and support each other on walks. In an ideal world eh?!

It maybe that Si Crewe assumes his dogs to be under control and one hopes for the sake of reactive, nervous dogs and their hard working owners everywhere that he can control his dogs by kind methods to avoid this, and has trained his dogs to accept the lead in legal places where it is a requirement to avoid a negative outcome.

What I know I detest more is those who use painful shock and prong collars to control their dogs, that's not training. It is a failure.

Annnnyway - OP how are you getting on, I'm a bit worried we've heard nothing but the way this thread has progressed I'm not surprised

I hope all is well.

Agree with this, and another part of the problem is people treating their dogs like little humans in fur coats. Toy breeds especially are treated as baby substitutes, and you end up with a very confused dog, who doesn't know how to behave like a dog, and doesn't have the boundaries a dog should have, so lines blur as to what is acceptable behaviour.


Prong collars look barbaric, they should be illegal, but thankfully, their a lot less common over here than in the US. Apparently, if you know how to use one properly, they don't harm, but the problem is, most don't know, and anybody can walk into a pet store and buy one. And of course, as with anything else, the sort of person who puts one of these on their dog to make it look 'hard', is hardly going to be an average dog owner whose going to read the instructions and take the time to use it properly are they? Shock collars are illegal in Wales but not in other parts of the UK, which is a shame.

Obedience is also dependent on breed. We have Cairn Terriers. I would never in a million years let them off lead. Even in open fields. They're bred to work independently and if they see a squirrel or rabbit, they're off like a shot and are likely not to come back. This isn't the dog behaving badly, but a part of the breed characteristic.

What really winds me up are people who let their dog off lead, the dog comes up to my dogs who are on lead, and they don't get on. The other owner then complains. Keep your bloody dogs on a lead like I do.

I live near the country, where people are often out shooting. The number of times I see people let their dogs off lead. Don't moan if your dog accidentally gets shot. There is a clear notice that dogs should be kept on the lead at all times.

That's very true we have had terriers we could not let off lead too, we now have a Labrador who when you let her off (no training just natural behaviour) walks strictly by your side refusing to leave you unless you throw a ball. Natural behaviour not better training.

Am glad you said that, natural behaviour, my collie is well trained, but has an aggressive side to her, most folks I know who have collies have their problems, that's why I am curious to know how the op has got on, I know I couldn't leave my dog with someone she'd only met for 3hrs.

I have had some really laid back types too not a bad bone in their bodies but I wouldn't trust them with anyone if they only met them for a few days let alone hours. Unless I paid for a professional dog/house sitter who is used to all sorts of dogs and situations.