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Another black man shot dead in USA by police officer


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Old 09-04-2015, 22:47
MC_Satan
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Perhaps it also would depend what the Police Service want to do with him, they may want to make an example / defuse tensions and co operate with the prosecution. It's an easier prosecution than most and could be Politically expedient.
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Old 09-04-2015, 22:52
lemoncurd
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Sorry but that seems like a complete straw man to me.

I see nothing in this incident which reflects "gun culture" at all.
Except that it shows that a *traffic* officer was armed with a gun! In the UK, armed response is for situations that pose a threat to public security.
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Old 09-04-2015, 22:57
idlewilde
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Except that it shows that a *traffic* officer was armed with a gun! In the UK, armed response is for situations that pose a threat to public security.
Most police forces across Europe routinely arm their officers, but that doesn't reflect their respective country's gun culture in fairness.
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Old 09-04-2015, 23:02
MC_Satan
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Most police forces across Europe routinely arm their officers, but that doesn't reflect their respective country's gun culture in fairness.
First time I went to Germany I was taken aback by the armed police, oddly I wasn't surprised in America. I found German Police polite and helpful (if i asked for directions).
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Old 09-04-2015, 23:18
MC_Satan
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Dash cam has been released apparently . I have not seen it but it's been released.
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Old 09-04-2015, 23:59
mrtdg82
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Most murder victims are not killed by instruments of the justice system. The police officer is a government employee meant to uphold justice, but he decided on a summary, extra-judicial execution of a non-violent offender instead. This case is not just some random killing, it's the justice system itself gone haywire. The state has more culpability here than in a typical murder, yet a clear history of showing leniency in similar cases. If you care so much about preserving the proper forms of law and order, then you really need to care about law and order not being flouted by the people meant to administer it. The possibility of the state getting away with yet another murder of one of it's citizens should be far more concerning to you than the possibility that somehow this guy who did shoot and kill someone for no reason is "innocent" on a technicality but suffers poor public relations.

The point is that the poster's priorities are demented. He cares too much about blatant murderers who are caught dead to rights in plain sight and hiding behind government corruption, and not enough about innocent victims.

Without public scrutiny, this trial would never have happened, and without ongoing scrutiny it could fade away at any point in the process, like it has so many times before. Police have gotten away with countless killings like this one and hardly ever face any legal consequences. Some people are far too concerned about the media attention possibly making the trial unfair for the murderer, when the media attention is the only reason that there even is a fair trial. Given the circumstances and the context, they should far be more concerned about a lack of attention making it unfair for the victim.

Nobody ever said there won't be a trial. It's a strawman argument creating a false dichotomy between having a trial and media attention. We don't have to choose just one. Media attention and a fair trial can coexist, and in a case like this, a trial with media attention is the only way it will be fair. There will be a trial now, but only because of the media.
I simply suggested that the issue with the media is people make their own minds up prior to a trial which can cause issues. Especially if the media out a particular slant on tbings, or release untruths.

Nothing wrong with public scrutiny, I'm all for it when done correctly however you said if justice isn't done then they will take to rioting, I will never agree with that.

You also said that since the victim didn't gt a trial why should the officer and I said because it's part of his human rights and it's the right of an individual to have their side heard.

I'm not putting a nurderer before a victim, I just ask that justice is done properly and fairly and not by mob rule.

Out of interest, if he is found guilty of manslaughter and gets say 10 years, would that suffice or will the result in riots?
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Old 10-04-2015, 00:18
Si_Crewe
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Dash cam has been released apparently . I have not seen it but it's been released.
Just watched it on CNN.

Doesn't really paint a picture of somebody who was fleeing in terror at the inevitable prospect of being treated badly by a white cop.

The cop was reasonable and polite, took his details and wandered off back to his car (presumably to check what he'd been told) when Scott decided, quite bizarrely, to flee.

Fundamentally, the only issue I can see is still the fact that US cops sometimes fail to consider that "it's not worth killing somebody over" is a valid choice to make in these situations.

Nothing yet particularly suggests there was any racist motive for this, rather than simply a cop who couldn't think beyond using his gun to fix whatever problem faced him.
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Old 10-04-2015, 00:23
Fried Kickin
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Dash cam has been released apparently . I have not seen it but it's been released.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/wal...ichael-n338786

So we know he ran away before being tasered.
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Old 10-04-2015, 00:53
Pee
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Just watched it on CNN.

Doesn't really paint a picture of somebody who was fleeing in terror at the inevitable prospect of being treated badly by a white cop.

The cop was reasonable and polite, took his details and wandered off back to his car (presumably to check what he'd been told) when Scott decided, quite bizarrely, to flee.

Fundamentally, the only issue I can see is still the fact that US cops sometimes fail to consider that "it's not worth killing somebody over" is a valid choice to make in these situations.

Nothing yet particularly suggests there was any racist motive for this, rather than simply a cop who couldn't think beyond using his gun to fix whatever problem faced him.
it's not really relevant whether or not there was an obvious racist motive for the shooting, to be honest. like it or not, there is always going to be a racial concern to these cases due to the perception that the system treats its blacks and whites differently. from the stop itself (South Carolina laws only require one working tail-light) to the altercation and shooting to the way it was reported before the video emerged, to the probable exoneration of the policeman involved had there been no video, there are several stages of the process where it is reasonable to question whether or not there would have been a different outcome had Walter Scott been white.

anyway, this video pretty much confirms that Slager cannot reasonably have been in fear for his life. Scott was clearly just trying to get away. he had quite a head-start on Slager too, and yet still managed to get caught by the time the incident was captured on video. Slager could easily have caught him again when he managed to break free and run, but chose to shoot and kill him instead.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:24
Si_Crewe
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it's not really relevant whether or not there was an obvious racist motive for the shooting...
It seems pretty relevant to me, given the way people like Al Sharpton have been doing the TV interviews today and the number of people waving placards around to that effect.

If there's a danger of creating a situation where it's impossible to police black people without being branded as a "racist" than, frankly, things are going to go all to shit very quickly.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:31
mrtdg82
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Just watched it on CNN.

Doesn't really paint a picture of somebody who was fleeing in terror at the inevitable prospect of being treated badly by a white cop.

The cop was reasonable and polite, took his details and wandered off back to his car (presumably to check what he'd been told) when Scott decided, quite bizarrely, to flee.

Fundamentally, the only issue I can see is still the fact that US cops sometimes fail to consider that "it's not worth killing somebody over" is a valid choice to make in these situations.

Nothing yet particularly suggests there was any racist motive for this, rather than simply a cop who couldn't think beyond using his gun to fix whatever problem faced him.
I saw a video of a witness who stated that she saw a tussle between the two before he ran for the second time. I would hazard a guess that when the cop caught him, he reached for his tazer and scott stopped him from doing so.

He has disarmed the cop (to protect himself) and ran off again. The cop has resorted to his gun as his final option and shot him (as per your last paragraph).

In my mind the intent isn't there for myrder but it is an unlawful killing as at no stage was there any threat to his life. He made a very bad decision, one that will cost him.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:40
NorwoodCemetery
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If it's already been covered then apologies, but I found the news reports tonight interesting in that this whole issue has raised the requisite use of body cameras. Really an excellent idea and surely not too difficult to implement. Protection all round.

As for the question of corrupt officers in the UK, there are 129,584 rank officers according to this publication, as of 2013. 5% would make near enough 6,500; more than enough to damage real justice significantly across the country.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:44
Si_Crewe
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I saw a video of a witness...
And that's often the biggest problem in these cases.

Some malcontent shows up, willing to go on camera and say that he saw whatever suits his personal agenda, and people are forced to respond to it as if it was a fact.

Gone are the days when people could be relied upon to simply speak the truth so that justice might be done, in whoever's favour.
These days it's more about people simply advocating their prejucides, whether it be that dumb-as-a-brick Jabba the Hutt lookalike in the Zimmerman case or people claiming to see things that didn't happen in the Michael Brown case.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:45
Si_Crewe
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If it's already been covered then apologies, but I found the news reports tonight interesting in that this whole issue has raised the requisite use of body cameras. Really an excellent idea and surely not too difficult to implement. Protection all round.

As for the question of corrupt officers in the UK, there are 129,584 rank officers according to this publication, as of 2013. 5% would make near enough 6,500; more than enough to damage real justice significantly across the country.
Is there any evidence that 5% of police are corrupt or unethical in some way?
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:47
NorwoodCemetery
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Is there any evidence that 5% of police are corrupt or unethical in some way?
No. The '5%' is the figure that has been repeatedly suggested by others on this thread. My numbers were simply to demonstrate that a hypothetical 5% being corrupt is still 6,500 officers too many.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:49
Si_Crewe
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Great news.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:51
NorwoodCemetery
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No evidence indeed that 5% are corrupt. Could in fact be 2%. Could in fact be 10%.
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Old 10-04-2015, 01:58
Anachrony
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No evidence indeed that 5% are corrupt. Could in fact be 2%. Could in fact be 10%.
There's two very different numbers of corrupt cops. There are the ones who will do stuff like shoot unarmed suspects, take bribes from criminals, and other forms of overt corruption. And then there are the "good" ones who will not personally do that, but look the other way and protect their colleagues, even when they are doing those things. Cops who are completely corrupt are probably a small minority, but cops who will police corrupt coworkers are probably a minority too. Until good cops consider it their duty to protect against bad cops, then there is a serious problem.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:04
Si_Crewe
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No evidence indeed that 5% are corrupt. Could in fact be 2%. Could in fact be 10%.
It's enough to keep you awake at night, making wild guesses, isn't it?
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:05
NorwoodCemetery
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There's two very different numbers of corrupt cops. There are the ones who will do stuff like shoot unarmed suspects, take bribes from criminals, and other forms of overt corruption. And then there are the "good" ones who will not personally do that, but look the other way and protect their colleagues, even when they are doing those things. Cops who are completely corrupt are probably a small minority, but cops who will police corrupt coworkers are probably a minority too. Until good cops consider it their duty to protect against bad cops, then there is a serious problem.
It's like anything, the stories that are covered in the news about police corruption don't exactly instill confidence that it isn't more widespread than is let on. for example, the officers who were leaking/tipping off newspapers who were exposed during the frenzied press revelations - from my understanding it appeared to be easy money and low risk. It surely isn't inconceivable that large numbers of officers were/are involved in this practice.

It's enough to keep you awake at night, making wild guesses, isn't it?
I'm unclear what your issue is. I was taking the 5% figure suggested by others, and simply demonstrating what that would mean in terms of actual numbers. You seem to be pretty defensive about it. Ex-copper perchance?

Suggest you refer to those earlier in the thread who made the original percentage conjecture. I was responding to them.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:06
Monty Fuque
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Does seem strange the low number of black cops in a mostly black area, what could be the cause of this anomaly ?

A good well paid career, with a large pension and lots of benefits, plus the respect of your peers.

Surely black people are as law abiding and public spirited as other ethnic groups.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:11
NorwoodCemetery
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Does seem strange the low number of black cops in a mostly black area, what could be the cause of this anomaly ?

A good well paid career, with a large pension and lots of benefits, plus the respect of your peers.

Surely black people are as law abiding and public spirited as other ethnic groups.
Easy to suggest that a good proportion of US black people distrust the police historically and don't see the force as a viable option. Perhaps there are other reasons.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:12
Si_Crewe
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I'm unclear what your issue is. I was taking the 5% figure suggested by others, and simply demonstrating what that would mean in terms of actual numbers. You seem to be pretty defensive about it. Ex-copper perchance?

Suggest you refer to those earlier in the thread who made the original percentage conjecture. I was responding to them.
My issue is that pulling a random number out of your arse and then speculating about how bad it'd be if it was real is the height of futility.

I responded to your post because it was you that I saw do it. Nothing more.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:19
NorwoodCemetery
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My issue is that pulling a random number out of your arse and then speculating about how bad it'd be if it was real is the height of futility.

I responded to your post because it was you that I saw do it. Nothing more.
Got the two police threads mixed up. My error. But still:

I like to believe that Will Bee's figure of 5% on corrupt officers is not far out. That's still 5% too many though.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:43
Si_Crewe
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Got the two police threads mixed up. My error. But still:
Ah, right.

So, not only speculation but speculation that is in an entirely different thread, about an incident completely unrelated to this one and on a different continent?

The credibility just keeps on mounting up.
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