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Another black man shot dead in USA by police officer
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vinba
10-04-2015
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“Scott had outstanding warrants so let's not pretend that the officer walked up to a random person on the street and shot them. There were a chain of events that led to this, justified or not.

It is also likely he has been charged with first degree murder for a couple of reasons. Firstly to appease the public and secondly because it can be downgraded by the court whereas manslaughter can't be upgraded. A couple of us have suggested it will turn out to be the lesser charge, as its unlikely they will prove all elements of murder. Of course I could be wrong.

You can blame american police procedure for the handcuffing thing but can't blame the officer, as he was following protocol.”

Are you reading any of this thread?

He had no outstanding warrants

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...t-traffic-stop

What sort of society do we live in where a policeman can't blow away a suspect and then have a laugh and drink about it later with his buddies..

And he was calm enough to follow protocol to cuff the person he's just shot in the back but not follow protocol when he executed Scott?
mrtdg82
10-04-2015
Originally Posted by vinba:
“Are you reading any of this thread?

He had no outstanding warrants

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...t-traffic-stop

What sort of society do we live in where a policeman can't blow away a suspect and then have a laugh and drink about it later with his buddies..

And he was calm enough to follow protocol to cuff the person he's just shot in the back but not follow protocol when he executed Scott?”

Yes I've read this thread and I was under the impression that he had an outstanding warrant for non payment of child care or something hence why he decided to run. If I'm wrong fair enough, that's the thing with these cases we all pick up different information.

Regardless it doesn't justify the shooting, which at no point have I justified it either. However people make out like this cop just walked up to a random person a shot them. There was a sequence of events that contributed to the outcome, some of which were influenced by Scott. Now personally I don't believe any of that will justify the shooting, even to a jury, but I do believe it will likely deter them from going down the murder path, because I don't think you can prove that beyond reasonable doubt.
MC_Satan
10-04-2015
10 sheriff's deputies put on administrative leave after the horseback chase, tasing, battering linked to earlier in the thread.
The beating carries on after the suspect appears to be complying. This one's footage is from a news helicopter.
ETA: It does make me wonder how often these displays of excessive force happen. That's two, filmed, in as many days. How many happen that aren't filmed and are quietly shelved? It appears that there is a discipline problem in the US police that is not being addressed. The police should be made to wear body cameras. To protect the public and the police.
Axtol
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“It will still be seen by the public as a cold blooded execution of someone who had done no wrong, by a trigger happy psychopath, operating on behalf of the state.

Which is exactly what it is, and why he has been charged with first degree murder.

Of course, handcuffing a corpse makes him look even more of an insane bastard than he did to start with. I think the protocol will be lost on any decent person with an ounce of human feeling.”

It's irrelevant how they saw it. They have their protocols, put in place by experts for specific reasons. I see no reason to abandon those protocols simply because some people don't understand why they are necessary.
MC_Satan
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“So you'd prefer that officers abandon protocol put in place for a good reason to appease the public, most of whom will never have been in the same kind of scary situation they are judging?”

Overweight, dead, 50 year old guy os scary?
Axtol
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by MC_Satan:
“Overweight, dead, 50 year old guy os scary?”

20/20 hindsight. I appreciate that it looks "cold" but there is a reason why they get handcuffed, even if they are "obviously" dead.

Read this http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/08...ad-people.html

"Counted among the suspects shot during incidents that officers reported during the VALOR interviews were some who appeared to be dead—for example, from multiple rifle rounds to the head—but who were still alive. Fortunately, none of the thoughtdead offenders managed to injure any officers interviewed, but the fact that they were still alive meant that they maintained the capacity to do so. "
MC_Satan
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“20/20 hindsight. I appreciate that it looks "cold" but there is a reason why they get handcuffed, even if they are "obviously" dead.

Read this http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/08...ad-people.html

"Counted among the suspects shot during incidents that officers reported during the VALOR interviews were some who appeared to be dead—for example, from multiple rifle rounds to the head—but who were still alive. "”

You can't say any of the Scott incident was a scary situation. I faced far worse on a daily basis at work, with no weapons. The situation with Scott was in no way scary for a trained person.
Axtol
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by MC_Satan:
“You can't say any of the Scott incident was a scary situation. I faced far worse on a daily basis at work, with no weapons. The situation with Scott was in no way scary for a trained person.”

As I understand it Scott tried to grab the cops weapon, which imo demonstrates an intent to kill or (being extremely generous) seriously injure. While cops do regularly get into physical confrontations and build up a kind of "tolerance" to the adrenaline rush, any situation where your life is potentially in danger will always be scary no matter what.

They are saying that Slager apparently picked an object up and dropped it next to Scott's body. IF that's true that it's the taser, then it is pretty damning for him but I am going to wait to see until that's been confirmed, because I won't condemn a man for murder until I'm convinced he's guilty, not just "probably" guilty.
MC_Satan
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“As I understand it Scott tried to grab the cops weapon, which imo demonstrates an intent to kill or (being extremely generous) seriously injure. While cops do regularly get into physical confrontations and build up a kind of "tolerance" to the adrenaline rush, any situation where your life is potentially in danger will always be scary no matter what.”

A discharged taser? Given the report is Scott had a taser spike in him
If indeed he tried to grab it. Even Slager's radio report says he tried to grab the taser. Not the gun.
My life has been in danger at work many times, I have been attacked at work, I have dealt with knife weilding people, I have dealt with people absconding. The situation when put together from dash footage to end result is a simple chase and scuffle and an unjustified killing.

ETA: It is the taser, channel 4 news zoomed the footage. He then makes a point of showing it to the backup officer. He's also pretty calm about it.
Monty Fuque
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by MC_Satan:
“
ETA: It is the taser, channel 4 news zoomed the footage. He then makes a point of showing it to the backup officer. He's also pretty calm about it.”

Ah yes, C4 news, the home of unbiased reporting.

Straws being clutched here, are you saying his unnerving calmness is a factor in his murderous culpabilty or maybe it just could be that he is an experienced and calm cop briefing his colleague on the event that just took place ?
MC_Satan
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Monty Fuque:
“Ah yes, C4 news, the home of unbiased reporting.

Straws being clutched here, are you saying his unnerving calmness is a factor in his murderous culpabilty or maybe it just could be that he is an experienced and calm cop briefing his colleague on the event that just took place ?”

Have you seen the footage? The zoom is clearly the same image or have they faked it? A pretty serious accusation.
The officer is either scared for his life or calm. Adrenaline doesn't fade that fast.
He calmly picks up the dropped taser and then casually drops it next to Scott. At no time did I say it was 'unnerving'.
Monty Fuque
11-04-2015
I'm just saying the officer's calmness and casualness, as you say, could be the sign of a experienced cop, trained in the use of firearms and police procedure, his adrenaline levels, if any, are not known, and are probably inadmissable as bona fide evidence, and to comment on them is pure speculative and emotional piffle.
MC_Satan
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Monty Fuque:
“I'm just saying the officer's calmness and casualness, as you say, could be the sign of a experienced cop, trained in the use of firearms and police procedure, his adrenaline levels, if any, are not known, and are probably inadmissable as bona fide evidence, and to comment on them is pure speculative and emotional piffle.”

Well, given that others are saying he feared for his life and thus fired would imply a certain level of emotional input. Unless of course he is a psychopath.
So you think Channel 4 faked or altered the footage?
You think his actions are those of an experienced officer?
Do you think this was justified?
So moving evidence about is the action of an experienced and professional officer?
blueblade
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“It's irrelevant how they saw it. They have their protocols, put in place by experts for specific reasons. I see no reason to abandon those protocols simply because some people don't understand why they are necessary.”

Is it protocol that you feel the need to make excuses for Slager?
blueblade
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by vinba:
“Are you reading any of this thread?

He had no outstanding warrants

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...t-traffic-stop

What sort of society do we live in where a policeman can't blow away a suspect and then have a laugh and drink about it later with his buddies..

And he was calm enough to follow protocol to cuff the person he's just shot in the back but not follow protocol when he executed Scott?”

Absolutely - and still there's people here queuing up to defend the murderer Slager.
claire2281
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“As I understand it Scott tried to grab the cops weapon, which imo demonstrates an intent to kill or (being extremely generous) seriously injure.”

The cop claimed he tried to grab his taser. Which the cop had already discharged (the wires are seen trailing as the cop drops it). Scott was no danger at all.
vinba
11-04-2015
Meanwhile in Chicago you can blow away someone without even looking and the maximum you'd look at is 5 years

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...409-story.html

What a disgraceful society... So many of these cases would never have come to light if it wasn't for others taking video evidence..

I wonder how many other cop murders have been covered up due to falsification of crime scenes and lying?
Axtol
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“Is it protocol that you feel the need to make excuses for Slager?”

Sorry I wasn't aware that wanting to follow due process was "making excuses" for him. Clearly it would be more fair if everyone just judged him based on a short video clip that maybe doesn't tell the full story.

I don't like to judge anyone before we have enough evidence. At the moment it looks like Slager was probably in the wrong, but this mans liberty (or even his life if they have the DP in his state?) are at stake here. That means that I am not about to condemn a man as being guilty of murder based on some mobile phone footage that might not show us the full picture. Videos are notorious for painting a misleading photo of what actually happened and while I don't see how this could be the case here, there's enough doubt in my mind that I want to wait to hear/see the other evidence and be completely sure before I decide that this man is guilty.
mrtdg82
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by vinba:
“Meanwhile in Chicago you can blow away someone without even looking and the maximum you'd look at is 5 years

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...409-story.html

What a disgraceful society... So many of these cases would never have come to light if it wasn't for others taking video evidence..

I wonder how many other cop murders have been covered up due to falsification of crime scenes and lying?”

The cop was off duty at the time?

This incident highlights more so the issues with gun culture out there. It's crazy. Take away the guns and you stop people doing stupid things. The problem is that many people in society AND in the police havent the mentality to have a gun, this leads to incidents such as this.

I remember watching a comedian who described it best. The issue with everyone having guns is that there it doesn't give anyone a chance to calm down during angry/high intensity moments, so people make bad choices or decisions due to their mental state at the time of an incident.

Again this doesn't justify any of this but you give everyone a gun and bad decisions will be made by several.

There is a good argument that due to all these incidents police should be disarmed, but in doing that you have to disarm the public too. Hundreds of police are shot every year out there, we can understand sometimes why they are a bit jumpy.
Fried Kickin
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“The cop was off duty at the time?

This incident highlights more so the issues with gun culture out there. It's crazy. Take away the guns and you stop people doing stupid things. The problem is that many people in society AND in the police havent the mentality to have a gun, this leads to incidents such as this.

I remember watching a comedian who described it best. The issue with everyone having guns is that there it doesn't give anyone a chance to calm down during angry/high intensity moments, so people make bad choices or decisions due to their mental state at the time of an incident.

Again this doesn't justify any of this but you give everyone a gun and bad decisions will be made by several.

There is a good argument that due to all these incidents police should be disarmed, but in doing that you have to disarm the public too. Hundreds of police are shot every year out there, we can understand sometimes why they are a bit jumpy.”

In reality it's impossible to disarm the general populous in America.
For starters it's enshrined within their constitution (second amendment) that all Americans have the right to bear arms.
Secondly,it's political suicide for any party to attempt it.
So it's just something that they have to live with,I do agree with you though that the general ease of access to guns makes the likelihood of gun crime that much higher.
Axtol
11-04-2015
Was he basing this on him having studied the personal interaction of gun carrying Americans over a period of time or just voicing his own opinion? He may have a point if that logic was applied to our culture in our country but over there it's a very different culture. Guns are as an integral part of life as your house keys, and contrary to what you might think, the majority of those who carry don't just lose their temper and suddenly turn into Psycho. Why do you think that someone who is carrying a gun and arguing with someone else would ever even CONSIDER drawing it? There just isn't any point and they know it.

Originally Posted by mrtdg82:
“There is a good argument that due to all these incidents police should be disarmed, but in doing that you have to disarm the public too. Hundreds of police are shot every year out there, we can understand sometimes why they are a bit jumpy.”

Ok so if the police and the public are disarmed, who will stop the next person who goes on a shooting spree?
Takae
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“Sorry I wasn't aware that wanting to follow due process was "making excuses" for him. Clearly it would be more fair if everyone just judged him based on a short video clip that maybe doesn't tell the full story.

I don't like to judge anyone before we have enough evidence. At the moment it looks like Slager was probably in the wrong, but this mans liberty (or even his life if they have the DP in his state?) are at stake here. That means that I am not about to condemn a man as being guilty of murder based on some mobile phone footage that might not show us the full picture. Videos are notorious for painting a misleading photo of what actually happened and while I don't see how this could be the case here, there's enough doubt in my mind that I want to wait to hear/see the other evidence and be completely sure before I decide that this man is guilty.”

You seem to be happy enough to judge the victim guilty, though.
blueblade
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“It's irrelevant how they saw it. They have their protocols, put in place by experts for specific reasons. I see no reason to abandon those protocols simply because some people don't understand why they are necessary.”

Originally Posted by Axtol:
“Sorry I wasn't aware that wanting to follow due process was "making excuses" for him. Clearly it would be more fair if everyone just judged him based on a short video clip that maybe doesn't tell the full story.

I don't like to judge anyone before we have enough evidence. At the moment it looks like Slager was probably in the wrong, but this mans liberty (or even his life if they have the DP in his state?) are at stake here. That means that I am not about to condemn a man as being guilty of murder based on some mobile phone footage that might not show us the full picture. Videos are notorious for painting a misleading photo of what actually happened and while I don't see how this could be the case here, there's enough doubt in my mind that I want to wait to hear/see the other evidence and be completely sure before I decide that this man is guilty.”

But you seem to have set yourself up here as counsel for the defence of Slager. You even say it is irrelevant how the public view this shooting, which it certainly is not considering the number of black people who have been shot dead by the police in the USA. It's a matter of extreme sensitivity and obtuse beyond belief to simply dismiss public feeling as irrelevant.

Slager will get his trial, and he will be asked to explain why he shot dead a man who presented no danger and was running away, and why he then dropped his taser next to Mr. Scott's fallen body.
BigAndy99
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by Axtol:
“As I understand it Scott tried to grab the cops weapon, which imo demonstrates an intent to kill or (being extremely generous) seriously injure. While cops do regularly get into physical confrontations and build up a kind of "tolerance" to the adrenaline rush, any situation where your life is potentially in danger will always be scary no matter what.

They are saying that Slager apparently picked an object up and dropped it next to Scott's body. IF that's true that it's the taser, then it is pretty damning for him but I am going to wait to see until that's been confirmed, because I won't condemn a man for murder until I'm convinced he's guilty, not just "probably" guilty.”

The taser was thrown to the floor in the scuffle - that's where the video begins.

As soon as he could, he collected the taser (which is a weapon) and brought it to where he was working (the body) and put it on the floor (could he re-holster it when discharged, i'm not sure - wires coming from the end?).

What he did makes sense to me - i served in the army for many years, you don't leave weapons lying around, they should be within arms reach. The policeman was just being sensible but the noisy minority are out for blood and loving this.
Axtol
11-04-2015
Originally Posted by blueblade:
“But you seem to have set yourself up here as counsel for the defence of Slager. You even say it is irrelevant how the public view this shooting, which it certainly is not considering the number of black people who have been shot dead by the police in the USA. It's a matter of extreme sensitivity and obtuse beyond belief to simply dismiss public feeling as irrelevant.

Slager will get his trial, and he will be asked to explain why he shot dead a man who presented no danger and was running away, and why he then dropped his taser next to Mr. Scott's fallen body.”

Stop trying to drag race into this, skin colour has nothing to do with it. Either an officer is justified in shooting someone or they are not, the skin colour of the person has no relevance in that. At his trial, the prosecution will argue that Scott presented no danger. Slager will argue he was justified in shooting him. The jury will decide who is correct. Will you accept their verdict even if it doesn't go the way you want Blueblade?
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